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Mr. STONE. I do not think that is a binding list. It is only a tentative list to indicate approximately how much money it would take to conduct investigations, and even with New Mexico, as I say, there is one large project in Colorado, the largest one we have, the Blue diversion, which is not listed because it is in the same category as the Chama-San Juan. There has been an investigation which puts it in

. the picture.

Senator CHAVEZ. New Mexico does not object to Colorado putting forward any of the projects that they desire and to get their full share of this.

Mr. STONE. If you examine the proceedings you will find that Mr. Debler has mentioned the Chama-San Juan and Blue, and has stated that whatever is necessary to complete those investigations will be done.

Senator CHAVEZ. That is all, Judge. Thank you.
Senator ASHURST. Mr. John C. Page.


Senator ASHURST. State your name and your position.

Mr. PAGE. John C. Page, Commissioner of Bureau of Reclamation.

Senator ASHURST. How long have you held that position ?
Mr. PAGE. Since 1937.

Senator ASHURST. Senator Chavez, you may proceed with any questions that you have.

Senator CHAVEZ, Mr. Page, prior to the money being obtained by the appropriation of the special bill appropriating $50,000 for the investigation of the San Juan, did the Reclamation Bureau make any studies of the possibilities or feasibilities of a project on the San Juan River for a transmountain diversion dam!

Mr. PAGE. Nothing of any consequence. We did make a preliminary reconnaisance. We thought that something could be developed there, but money was not available to make a complete investigation.

Senator CHAVEZ. After the Bureau had allocated this money under the appropriation, did you make an investigation and a survey of the possibilities of the transmountain diversion dam!

Mr. PAGE. We made a rather complete investigation of the thing in connection with the general Rio Grande investigation, sponsored by the National Resources Planning Board. At that time we made estimates on the cost of the work, the physical features that would be involved in making that transmountain diversion from the San Juan to the Rio Chama, and included that in the report of the National Resources Planning Board as an overall picture on the Rio Grande.

Senator CHAVEZ. Did that include an investigation of the needs of the San Juan County people themselves, including the Navajo Indians?

Mr. PAGE. I think that took into account all prospective uses of the San Juan, with the expectation that probably some conservation work, storage, or something of that kind, would be necessary before there was water exported. That is, it would be necessary to augment the low water supply before an exportation was possible during that low water season. That did not ripen into what we consider now as the final answer. That is, there are quite a number of questions still left unsolved in connection with the San Juan-Rio Chama diversion, but that principle of protecting the Navajo and white settlers in the San Juan was given consideration at that time,

Senator CHAVEZ. Are you acquainted with the general needs of a water supply in the Rio Grande area, especially from the Colorado line down to the Rio Grande irrigation project at Elephant Butte?

Mr. Page. The water supply of the Rio Grande is entirely used. There is no excess water, no possibility of additional development, as we see it, on the Rio Grande unless water is imported. From our preliminary reconnaissance this San Juan-Rio Chama seems to be the best and only way in which New Mexico can use its share of the Colorado River water.

Senator CHAVEZ. Do you still have to make further surveys to come to a definite conclusion?

Mr. PAGE. To reach a final decision as to what the cost would be, and the details of that thing, we should have some drilling, dam site drilling, and some more detailed study on the geology of the transmountain tunnel, and several things which should be cinched before we are willing to say that this is what it is going to cost.

Senator CHAVEZ. Is it your purpose, if this bill should be enacted into law, to use some of the money that will be created in this special fund?

Mr. Page. Undoubtedly, because we hope to use this money which would be made available by this law to make a complete inventory of all the possibilities of irrigation and development that the Colorado River water in New Mexico and the other States might have, and this is thus far the most attractive proposition that has shown up in that part of New Mexico.

Senator CHAVEZ. What other sources of water supply are there in San Juan County, outside of the tributaries of the San Juan?

Mr. PAGE. I think there are none that could be counted on for any material amount of water. They seem to be the only source from which you can get water enough to make it worth while.

Senator CHAVEZ. This Animas-La Plata project that has been discussed here is only a small item?

Mr. PAGE. Yes; and that is pretty well covered by a compact, and pretty well used. The storage on the La Plata will help the situation. It has already ripened into an interstate compact.

Senator CHAVEZ. That can only be used by the people who are now using that water?

Mr. PAGE. Yes,

Senator CHAVEZ. And will not provide additional acreage or an additional supply for anything else?

Mr. Page. There seems to be no possibility of developing any additional area.

Senator CHAVEZ, Are there any projects contemplated at or near Aztec in San Juan County?

Mr. PAGE. I cannot answer that positively, but none of any consequence that I know of.

Senator CHAVEZ. Then in short, the only possibility to get additional water in the Rio Grande Valley would be through a storage transmountain diversion?

Mr. Page. Under the present investigation, that is the fact.

Senator CHAVEZ, And the San Juan is the only source of water supply from which New Mexico could get its proportionate share of the 7,500,000 acre-feet that is allotted under the original compact ?

Mr. Page. That seems to be the only opportunity we found.

Senator CHAVEZ. So, you feel New Mexico, as far as your end of it is concerned, is on the right road to get that water, if it is at all feasible or proper?

Mr. PAGE. Definitely so; yes.

Senator ASHURST. Did you wish to interrogate Mr. Page on any other matter, just now!

Senator CHAVEZ. That is about all.

Senator ASHURST. Mr. Page, you are at liberty to make any statement you choose for the record.

Mr. PAGE. I am in no position to make a statement.
Senator ASHURST. All right, Mr. Wallace.



Mr. WALLACE. I would like to say for the record that in the origiinal writing of the Colorado River Dam Act, we did succeed in getting in section 15, under which this comprehensive plan is being developed. Further, I would like to read a small statement, because the only thing we are particularly interested in is to have the seven States of this basin cooperatively and enthusiastically work together for the development of the entire basin.

This is a statement by William R. Wallace, chairman of the Utah State Water Storage Commission, which is charged with the duty of planning the “ultimate development" of the State water resources and is specifically charged with that duty as to the Colorado River, executive vice chairman—the Governor being chairman of the Utah State Planning Board, a member of the Seven States Committee of Fourteen and of the Committee of Sixteen. The other Utah member of these committees is Grover A. Giles, assistant attorney general.

The Utah State Water Storage Commission was created by the legislature 20 years ago. It consists of 12 members and, ex officio, the State engineer, always 6 Democrats and 6 Republicans, and always, Mr. Chairman, its decision as to policy and selection of projects for analysis and construction have been unanimous.

The Governor of the State of Utah, the Honorable Henry H. Blood, has for years acted as the chairman of the upper States Governors' conferences and of the seven States conferences. Under his guidance it has come about that all these States are working together for the good of all. These statements are made so that the committee may know that the Utah officials have made a most careful and painstaking study of the proposed legislation. By unanimous vote the Utah State Water Storage Commission expressed its approval thereof and respect fully recommended its passage by the Congress. The Governor of Utah made suggestions on behalf of the States of the upper basin, as also did members of the Utah congressional delegation. These suggestions have been accepted by the power allottees,

The passage of this legislation will result in the completion of the comprehensive analysis of the resources of the Colorado River now Senator CHAVEZ Yca tate DX! Mr. DE ARMOND. NO Senator CHAVEZ. What happened to the money! Mr. DE ARMOND. There is no any ás ver Senator CHAVEZ. Where do you get your lignent Mr. DE ARMOND. That is 13 percent. We asins et ** ** might get some of it, but up to the present time we have invitati none of it.

Senator CHAVEZ. Are you getting any indirect benefits frem til

Mr. De Arrond. Well, we get some indirect benetits frun certainly, but I am speaking of the use of water, the development of water and the use of water within the State. We ha proposte v that up to the present time. We have some punjen* ** : Vegas, probably chiefly for domestic use, that will soon aviin water from the Colorado River. There are some in low volal ley, a little in the southwestern part of the State. I + 7111 tvo make the statement that Nevada has not puif setiap penyant water of the Colorado River itself except the lata, *** einern in the Moapa Valley and the Virgin Taller i nytt for rights.

Senator DOWNEY. I would like to post the point in prima mitment of the bill and my earnest bapto lost it will liriminirtintritt reported out.

Senator ASHURST. Thank you, Senutat:

The next witness is Mr. Schwab, STATEMENT OF IVAN A. SCHWAB, BUNTAH OF Hihet AMAN

Senator ASHURST. Will you state your hann hon?

Mr. SCHWAB. Ivan A. Schwab; attorney with a lie lamation.

Senator ASHURST. You may proceed

Mr. SCHWAB. I wanted to submit one thing that I we will help to clarify your record. When Judge Stone was founding the other day, he produced four charts that were med by MRJ Tipton in his testimony before the House committee, those charts were introduced in the record here. As was developed by Senator O‘Mahoney in questioning Judge Stone, much one of those charts was based on a financial study that had been prepared by the Bureau of Reclamation. I have here copies of these four financial studia and I suggest that they be incorporated in your record, each one follow the particular chart to which it refers

Senator Ashurst. Is there objection to the request of Vision to print certain matter in our committee journal?

Senator CHAVEZ. No.
Senator Ashurst. It is so ordered, in the absence of
(The financial studies were attached to the charts missa

Senator ASHURST. If there be other witnesses in in
ington, or outside the city of Washington, they min
day following the witnesses presented by Senator
We will meet at 10:30 o'clock Monday morning

(Whereupon, at 11:20 a. m., a recess was taka Monday, June 3, 1940.)

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