Mr. BUCHANAN. Something else is offsetting that, Doctor. It shows up in your production figures.

Mr. SMITH. As these machines wear out, that will be felt more and

more.

Mr. GAMBLE. They are not being replaced, Doctor?

Mr. SMITH. Not as fast as they are wearing out.

Mr. GAMBLE. Did we not wear a lot of them during the war? Mr. SMITH. Not only during the war, but also during the depression. Mr. EDWARDS. I would like to have the advantage of time to check those figures, Dr. Smith. I have never heard them before and they do not seem to fit the picture that I live with.

Mr. SMITH. I will tell you where you can get these figures. I testified before the House Foreign Affairs Committee on the European recovery program. Unfortunately I cannot give you the date, but you will find in the testimony I gave that committee substantiation for what I have stated.

Mr. EDWARDS. Thank you, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Are there further questions of the witness?

If not, we are very grateful to you, Mr. Edwards, for the contribution you have made. You may make a supplemental statement for the record, if you wish.

Mr. EDWARDS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciated the oppor-. tunity to be here and enjoyed it.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Norman Pike. Mr. Pike is chairman of the New York City Inter-Project Tenants' Council.

We are very glad to hear you, Mr. Pike.

Mr. PIKE. My name is Norman Pike, and I am a tenant. I reside in the Red Hook housing project, in the Borough of Brooklyn. I represent, as chairman, the low-rent housing projects in the city of New York which are affiliated to our Inter-Project Tenants' Council as such. I ask permission to testify here on the Taft-Ellender-Wagner bill, and also on the amendment which was passed by voice vote in the United States Senate.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well. You may proceed.

STATEMENT OF NORMAN PIKE, CHAIRMAN, INTER-PROJECT TENANTS' COUNCIL OF NEW YORK CITY

Mr. PIKE. As chairman of the Inter-Project Tenants' Council of New York City, I wish to present the official representative viewpoint of low-income, public-housing-project tenants with reference to S. 866. A federation of 10 city-wide public-project tenant organizations, our council represents about 16,000 tenants. Its affiliates function in virtually every public-housing project. It thus truly expresses the views and hopes of the population group most affected by the critical housing shortage.

We maintain that the American people are entitled to the right to be adequately and decently housed and housed within their income. But it can be stated as truly today as many years ago, when the low-rent public-housing program began, that slums still exist and that at least one-third of our Nation is still ill housed.

Throughout the United States, there exists a critical housing shortage. A poll of regional housing and expediters, taken by the Associated Press at their recent meeting in New Orleans, indicates slight

progress in easing the housing shortage, so far as families of low and medium incomes are concerned.

Mr. Hofstra, of New York, was quoted as saying that the housing situation was "tighter than ever before." Mr. Driscoll, of Boston, noted that the housing shortage was "extremely acute," and added that "it showed no signs of relaxation." Mr. Cox, of San Francisco, said housing conditions remained "critical" in his area; and Mr. Campbell, of Atlanta, made a similar comment. Mr. Abern, of Chicago, reported "little, if any, housing relief." Mr. Queary, of Cleveland, pictured housing conditions in the Midwest as "worse than ever before." Mr. Stephens, of Dallas, said he saw signs of "pretty slow" improvement. As regards New York City, Mayor O'Dwyer in his statement to the United States Conference of Mayors declared:

New York City has a total need for 750,000 new apartments if we are to satisfy the existing absolute housing shortage. Our city has an absolute housing shortage for about 500,000 persons crowded in the crudest and most difficult conditions. In addition, there are 600,000 families living in slums and obsolete buildings, and there is at least 260,000 veterans in dire need of housing.

This is the dismal housing picture in our Nation and in New York City. Our council, therefore, strongly urges the immediate enactment of the Taft-Ellender-Wagner housing bill. We maintain that its adoption will considerably ease the now-existent housing shortage.

Our Government is the only medium to provide an urgent public housing program. For it has been repeatedly stated by Government officials and realty interests that private enterprise cannot and will not provide housing within the rental range of low- and mediumincome groups. But, if private enterprise cannot and will not provide housing for the low- and medium-income groups at rentals such groups can afford, our Government must provide such necessary housing. Urgent slum clearance, urgent urban development, and immediate, adequate housing at rentals within the income range of lowand medium-income groups depend upon Government aid. We, therefore, cannot overemphasize the urgency for the adoption of the TaftEllender-Wagner housing bill.

At this point, I would like to include an addition made to our statement as submitted to your committee. Our secretary failed to include this in the report and I would like to bring it out at this particular point.

I refer to an additional statement sent to your committee and this is dated May 17.

We specifically urge the inclusion and adoption of the public housing provision in the Taft-Ellender-Wagner housing bill. This provision provides for the construction of 500,000 low-rent housing units with the aid of Federal funds.

We also urge the inclusion and adoption of the slum-clearance provision in the bill.

Removal of the public-housing and slum-clearance provisions would definitely hamper and cut the heart out of the bill.

Private enterprise is unable and unwilling to provide adequate housing. Our Government must assume its responsibility to millions of its citizens who are inadequately housed.

We therefore urge that Congress pass the Taft-Ellender-Wagner bill, including its provision for public housing and slum clearance. In addition to our support of this housing measure, our council is

We have not had many people who have come in here and pointed out to us exactly how and why and in what manner this bill will meet the critical housing shortage, and, if I may say it to you in all kindness, I think you have done exactly the same thing. I am trying to find out how and in what manner the various titles of this bill will meet the housing shortage. Not by saying it will liberalize credit. That does not help me as a member of this committee. I am trying to find out in what manner it will do so.

Mr. EDWARDS. I think, Mr. Cole, without being unduly critical of any member of the committee, you apparently did not listen while I was talking about the bill, because I took it by section

Mr. COLE. I listened very carefully, sir, and not once did you answer one of those questions that I have asked.

Mr. EDWARDS. I think I have answered all of the questions that you have asked me up to date. Could I finish my statement?

Mr. COLE. All right.

Mr. EDWARDS. I believe that I pointed out to you, in starting in, that the research section of the bill, in my opinion, would do a great deal to bring down costs and to stimulate building. I do not anticipate that will follow within the next few months after the bill is passed, but I do believe it is an important feature of an over-all housing program.

Mr. COLE. I heard that, but I did not hear in what manner it will do it. I can say "Research will do wonders." It is a wonderful thing. I love it.

Mr. EDWARDS. I will tell you what I am talking about, Mr. Cole. I think eventually we can build houses in America on the production line, and I think we ought to start working on it and I do not think anybody is going to be able to do it unless some national concern has gotten into this field, because to date the aggregations of builders are operating on too small and too localized a scale to do the job. That is my personal opinion about it. It was derived from some years of experience with this particular proposition, and I think there is a very good chance that this research section could prove to be one of the most important elements of the bill.

I pointed out, secondly-and I was utterly serious about it—whether my opinion is correct or not, I do not know, but it is certainly the best that I can offer to the committee-that I believed that the declaration of a national housing policy, and the provision of these features of financing, as proposed in the bill, would lend a stability to the housing program of America which would encourage more builders, more suppliers, and more labor to get into it-which would break some of the bottlenecks which we know are currently stopping us.

Mr. COLE. I heard those statements, Mr. Edwards, but those are summations of an argument after you have presented the facts. I am sorry to say, sir, that I do not believe you have presented the facts. Maybe I do not understand the facts as I see them. That could be. I am limited by my capacity.

Mr. EDWARDS. I suppose, Mr. Cole, that you and I just do not agree. Mr. BANTA. Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Banta.

Mr. BANTA. Mr. Edwards, you stated a while ago that you were on the board of tax appeals of your city?

Mr. EDWARDS. Yes, sir; I am.

Mr. BANTA. Do you, in functioning as a member of the board of tax appeals, determine the value of property for assessment purposes? Mr. EDWARDS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BANTA. What do you take into consideration in determining the value of properties?

Mr. EDWARDS. Our tax-assessment procedure, Mr. Banta, is based on the application of reproduction value, with depreciation taken off each year. That is the standard system of tax assessment in the State of Michigan, and we have applied it for some time in Detroit.

Mr. BANTA. You, therefore, do not take into consideration the incomereturn of the property?

Mr. EDWARDS. Only in a collateral manner. It is not the direct basis for assessment. If a taxpayer appears before the board of tax review, seeks relief on the grounds that his property is not valuable because it is not producing income, then, we ask for the income figures.

Mr. BANTA. The reason I made that inquiry is I was amazed to hear your mayor testify that you had a building in the slum area of the city of Detroit which is presently assessed at $12,480 and the owner thereof receives an income from it amounting to $18,480 a year. It is just a little amazing to me that the city authorities can no nothing about that kind of a situation without coming here.

Mr. EDWARDS. I wish we could, Mr. Banta. I do not know what we can do. I could go even further than that. Under the United States. Housing Act, we condemned two areas

Mr. BANTA. I might answer you in this way: That I do not live in the city. We are told we have our share of slums. We have plenty of substandard housing, according to those who have made surveys of substandard housing, but our taxing authorities would very soon take care of that situation. You would not get by one year with an income of 50 percent more than assessed valuation of the house. That is one thing we could do. Of course, I do not know, but it might be that if people who own property, which is admitted to be very valuable, were made to pay on a fair assessment value, based on income as well as the other factors to be taken into consideration, you might have better housing in your city.

Mr. EDWARDS. I think you are very right. I would like very much to see that done, Mr. Banta. I do not think it can be done by the council. I think it would take an amendment to our State tax laws.

Mr. BANTA. It is my idea that would be a very good place for you to go instead of coming to the Federal Government and asking for a subsidy to tear down these buildings.

Mr. EDWARDS. I do not think there is much relationship between the two, Mr. Banta, but I think I would like to see a greater relationship between income return and tax payments in the city of Detroit. I might tell you, Mr. Banta, that since the mayor testified on that particular property, the landlord turned the gas off for his tenants,. according to the reports in the daily press, so that they are now that much worse off than previously.

Mr. BANTA. At any rate, the case is a very lucid example, as far as this committee is concerned. Here is another situation. It was testified here either by Mr. Van Antwerp or the executive director of the housing authority, that the average income of persons living in these

We have not had many people who have come in here and pointed out to us exactly how and why and in what manner this bill will meet the critical housing shortage, and, if I may say it to you in all kindness, I think you have done exactly the same thing. I am trying to find out how and in what manner the various titles of this bill will meet the housing shortage. Not by saying it will liberalize credit. That does not help me as a member of this committee. I am trying to find out in what manner it will do so.

Mr. EDWARDS. I think, Mr. Cole, without being unduly critical of any member of the committee, you apparently did not listen while I was talking about the bill, because I took it by section—

Mr. COLE. I listened very carefully, sir, and not once did you answer one of those questions that I have asked.

Mr. EDWARDS. I think I have answered all of the questions that you have asked me up to date. Could I finish my statement?

Mr. COLE. All right.

Mr. EDWARDS. I believe that I pointed out to you, in starting in, that the research section of the bill, in my opinion, would do a great deal to bring down costs and to stimulate building. I do not anticipate that will follow within the next few months after the bill is passed, but I do believe it is an important feature of an over-all housing program.

Mr. COLE. I heard that, but I did not hear in what manner it will do it. I can say "Research will do wonders." It is a wonderful thing. I love it.

Mr. EDWARDS. I will tell you what I am talking about, Mr. Cole. I think eventually we can build houses in America on the production line, and I think we ought to start working on it and I do not think anybody is going to be able to do it unless some national concern has gotten into this field, because to date the aggregations of builders are operating on too small and too localized a scale to do the job. That is my personal opinion about it. It was derived from some years of experience with this particular proposition, and I think there is a very good chance that this research section could prove to be one of the most important elements of the bill.

I pointed out, secondly-and I was utterly serious about it-whether my opinion is correct or not, I do not know, but it is certainly the best that I can offer to the committee-that I believed that the declaration of a national housing policy, and the provision of these features of financing, as proposed in the bill, would lend a stability to the housing program of America which would encourage more builders, more suppliers, and more labor to get into it-which would break some of the bottlenecks which we know are currently stopping us.

Mr. COLE. I heard those statements, Mr. Edwards, but those are summations of an argument after you have presented the facts. I am sorry to say, sir, that I do not believe you have presented the facts. Maybe I do not understand the facts as I see them. That could be. I am limited by my capacity.

Mr. EDWARDS. I suppose, Mr. Cole, that you and I just do not agree. Mr. BANTA. Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Banta.

Mr. BANTA. Mr. Edwards, you stated a while ago that you were on the board of tax appeals of your city?