Secretary BoYD. That a great deal is being done? Secretary BOYD. Yes, sir. And is being done. This gets back to the point that Chairman Magnuson made. When we say a great deal is being done, we are talking about coming down from something like 800 parts per million to 180 parts per million. The question remains whether that is sufficient. To get back to your school boy, we are not prepared to say yet, to my knowledge, that 180 is a passing grade. Senator COTTON. Is it your impression, from the reports you get, that it is feasible and possible and can be lured substantially below that figure? Secretary BoYD. No, sir, I do not. I am not prepared to say that it can be done within the current state-of-the-art. Senator COTTON. Have you any idea how substantial is their research and their endeavors in this particular field of air pollution? Secretary BOYD. I have no basis, no knowledge, no basis for measurement, of either the absolute amount or the percentage. Senator COTTON. I don't expect them to give away their processes, but do they keep you informed or take means of assuring you as to how much they are doing? Secretary BOYD. I think the answer would be generally yes. Senator COTTON. Thank you. Cochairman MAGNUSON. Senator Boggs? Senator BOGGS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Secretary, I want to thank you for appearing here this morning, and certainly emphasizing the priority that air pollution control measures should have. I realize a lot has been done and a lot more is being done every day in research not only on electric cars but in the whole field of meeting our air pollution problem as far as transportation is concerned. I don't go one way or another from your message, and I want to clear this up in my mind-do you feel that the matter is moving forward fast enough at this time without legislation, or would the proposals before our committees help increase the urgency in meeting this problem? Secretary BOYD. I think I will have to answer that two ways. One is, we are currently evaluating the progress which is being made to reach a decision as to whether we in the Government think that sufficient progress is being made at this time. As to the legislation, there is no question in my mind but what it would be a significant representation of major public interest in this area of air pollution, or air pollution control. Senator BOGGS. Thank you very much. Cochairman MAGNUSON. Senator Hartke? Senator HARTKE. Mr. Chairman, I want to congratulate you, and I also want to congratulate Senator Muskie on the initiative taken in this field. I think it is very important that we recognize the fine work that has been done by Senator Muskie, especially in water pollution. Out home in Indiana we have difficulties keeping up with part of it because we are trying to clean up Lake Michigan. I want to thank him for the assistance he has given us in that behalf. Mr. Secretary, is it your thought that we should envision a day when we will all have electric cars and electric buses that will move large numbers of people, especially in the metropolitan areas, with safety and with a minimum amount of noise, and no air pollution? Secretary BOYD. Senator Hartke, I can't see that far into the future. I think that there is such a tremendous investment today in the internal combusion engine, and the whole automobile which is built around the internal combustion engine, that the chances are about equal that there will be sufficient improvements in the internal combustion engine or in a gas turbine engine which will fit into roughly the same type of automobile, that my guess is you will find a combination of both electric vehicles and improved internal combustion vehicles. Senator HARTKE. You stated on page 1 of your statement, "Nor is there any doubt that the motor vehicles are the single largest contributor to air pollution today." Secretary BOYD. That is correct. Senator HARTKE. That is especially true inside the metropolitan areas today? Secretary BOYD. Yes, sir. Senator HARTKE. Where do you put buses in this category? Secretary BoYD. I think this is a matter of degree, Senator Hartke. There are so many more cars than there are buses. We have a declining bus population which is relatively small to begin with. The buses certainly add to the air pollution. But because they are relatively so few Senator HARTKE. I understand that. The problem is air pollution and not the question of reducing the number of buses. As I understand what you are saying, it is that the bus population is declining while the automobile population is increasing, and that the net result is that pollution is increasing. Isn't that the consequence? Secretary BOYD. Yes. It would also be true if buses were increasing. Buses are a factor, no question about that. Senator HARTKE. What I am saying is the net result today is to increase the percentage of pollutants in the air? Secretary BOYD. With the existing internal combustion engine; yes, sir. Senator HARTKE. The problem here is how to move large numbers of people quickly and quietly and without polluting the atmosphere. Quite honestly, isn't that what we had for a number of years with the old electric trolleys? Have we gone backward? Secretary BOYD. Of course, we have, as in just about every aspect of our life, conflicting objectives. In that specific situation, the answer has to be yes. Senator HARTKE. Then why wouldn't it be advisable for a study, which is being considered in New York, on prohibiting automobiles from coming into the metropolitan areas and developing a system which would move large numbers of people within the metropolitan confines? Wouldn't that be a quick way to eliminate the problems of urban pollution? Secretary BOYD. It certainly would be, Senator Hartke. It also might be a quick step to eliminating a free society. Senator HARTKE. How would it eliminate a free society? Secretary BOYD. I think that one of our basic tenets is freedom of choice in this country. Senator HARTKE. You mean freedom of choice to inhale? Secretary BOYD. That is one of them. Senator HARTKE. I understand what you are saying. You are talking about stepping on economic toes. Secretary BOYD. It goes deeper than that. I think you are raising a constitutional issue. Senator HARTKE. You mean a person has a right to pollute the air? Secretary BOYD. Well, this is a democracy. Senator HARTKE. But there are limits on pollution. I don't think there is any question Secretary BoYD. I quite agree with you. But I am not prepared to agree that the answer Senator HARTKE. I didn't say it was "the answer." Why not spend money now to develop a system of transportation rapidly, inside the metropolitan areas, why not allocate some funds there? Are we doing anything in that field whatsoever? Secretary BoYD. That is being done through the Department of Housing and Urban Development. There is a substantial amount of money-I do not have the figures Senator HARTKE. Do you know what is being done in this field at all? Secretary BOYD. Yes. There are a number of design efforts underway to develop prototype buses. One of the specifications of which, as I understand it, would be a reduction, if not elimination, of air pollution. Senator HARTKE. What I am trying to see is how do we get the departments together? We have HEW, and we have the Department of Urban Affairs, and the Department of Transportation. Who is bringing all these people together and making sure that all the money that the taxpayers pay for this research and development program is going to benefit him and his children with cleaner air? Secretary BOYD. All of these programs are communicated through the President's scientific adviser, Dr. Hornig. That may not be the proper term. Senator HARTKE. How often do you meet with him? Secretary BOYD. I meet with him quite frequently, but on many different matters. This is not a matter of people sitting down Senator HARTKE. Is there coordination of these efforts or is it a question of osmosis, you pick up what you can as you go by? Secretary BOYD. No. I am afraid I am not explaining myself very well. If the Department of Transportation undertakes a project in this area, Dr. Hornig will be advised at the inception of the program. If the Department of Housing and Urban Development undertakes a program in this area, Dr. Hornig will be advised at its inception. If the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare undertakes a program in this area, Dr. Hornig will be advised. Senator HARTKE. Who tells them what we ought to allocate? Who sets a system of priorities and allocation of this program? Do you only tell him what you are doing? Is that the process? Secretary BOYD. This is part of the whole budget process. Senator HARTKE. But somebody has to pull the things together. What we have is the Government going out in too many fields, the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing all the time. What I want to find out is who makes sure that the right hand and the left hand work together. As I understand from this little colloquy, there is generally no coordination of this program. Secretary BOYD. Senator Hartke, let me make this point to you: The people in the Department of Commerce and the Office of Under Secretary of Transportation for Research, which will move into the Department of Transportation on April 1, are in close, complete coordination with the Department of Housing and Urban Development on all research transportation matters. I am not in a position to tell you who is in communication between the Department of HEW and the Department of Housing and Urban Development. I will be prepared to submit this for the record. I can assure you that there are sufficient areas of difference in our programs that we are not spending the Government's money duplicating each other's efforts. Senator HARTKE. But you had no directive as to priorities or anything of that kind from Dr. Hornig, is that true? Secretary BOYD. Not to my knowledge. But we are not dealing with the same things, Senator Hartke. This is the point I am trying to get through to you. There are many different aspects of this whole problem. The Department of Transportation at this moment does not have responsibility for urban mass transportation. Senator HARTKE. In your statement you say: "I plan to initiate a series of comprehensive studies to evaluate the long-term impacts of alternative vehicle systems upon the Nation's transportation system." Secretary BOYD. Yes, sir. And we will do that as we set up that study. I will write a letter to the Secretary of Housing and Urban Development. I will write a letter to the Secretary of Commerce. I will write a letter to the Secretary of HEW. I will write a letter to the Secretary of Defense. I will write a letter to the Director of the Bureau of the Budget. I will write a letter to Dr. Hornig. And I will advise them that we are setting up a specific study, outline the study, ask them to provide a staff representative for coordination and liaison. Senator HARTKE. Under the bill S. 451 it says: "The Secretary shall make an investigation and study for the purpose of determining practical means of propelling vehicles which will not contribute to air pollution." Are you the "Secretary" mentioned? Senator MUSKIE. No. That Secretary is the Secretary of HEW. Senator HARTKE. That is a different Secretary. Cochairman MAGNUSON. Yes, on S. 451. Senator HARTKE. S. 451 is which Secretary? Cochairman MAGNUSON. That is HEW. That is the Clean Air Act. That amends the Clean Air Act. The liaison between HUD and the Transportation Department still has to be worked out. Senator HARTKE. Mr. Secretary, I tried to find out from the Commerce Department in this general field of transportation what statistics they are keeping in regard to traffic deaths on the highway. They were not keeping them. So I hope that you will straighten this out. Too often, be it coordination or statistics, there is no overall direction to the programs. I wonder how you are going to be able to acquire this type of expertise in developing ideas in the field of electric cars when we can't even find an expert to find out how many people are being killed on the highways. We have to go to the National Safety Council to find out who was killed, and where they were killed, and the information of that type at the present time. Secretary BOYD. That is correct. That particular matter is a major effort of the Highway Safety Agency. And one of the areas this is an aside, Senator Cochairman MAGNUSON. Which is now under your Department. Secretary BOYD. Yes, sir-will be April 1. One of the things that creates a problem here of how many people were killed in automobile accidents is the pure and simple question of do you count as killed in an automobile accident only those people who are dead on the highway, dead on arrival at a hospital, or who die within a month or 6 months. And there is no standard definition on that at this stage of the Senator HARTKE. But the problem about the fact that you can't get the results on injuries and deaths, you don't even have those. You know this, don't you? Secretary BOYD. Yes, sir. game. Senator HARTKE. What I am trying to find out is where will you get all the money and talent to develop experts to evaluate to longterm impact of alternate vehicle systems upon the Nation's transportation system, when we can't even find enough experts to count the injuries and deaths on the highway today? Secretary BoYD. The deaths on the highways have historically been a matter of State activity and the National Safety Council has accumulated those. Senator HARTKE. I am not complaining about those. But who is going to pay the bill for all this? The taxpayer? Secretary BOYD. For the work that I outlined in my testimony, you have appropriated funds. And we will develop the people, to work through our own staff, which we are accumulating, and through contract research among the educational institutions of this county which have something to offer in this sphere, as well as among private contracting outfits if they are in position to support this kind of work. Senator HARTKE. Do all the firms and organizations make their information available for scientific and professional journals in this field at the present time, to your knowledge? Secretary BoYD. I do not know. I would hazard a guess that they do not. Senator HARTKE. Do you think that these things should be made a matter of public record? Secretary BOYD. Subject to the normal area of trade secrets. Senator HARTKE. I have a pamphlet. General Motors puts it out. They speak most highly of themselves. They say here that "In all research and development efforts, General Motors publishes its findings in scientific, engineering, and professional journals." They are a matter of public record. If General Motors can do this, don't you think in the interest of the national health that the others could do likewise? |