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Senator SPARKMAN. He thinks that ought to be stricken.

Senator WHERRY. I do not agree with that, and I do not think they are going to make me do that, are they? Is Mr. Foley around?

Senator SPARKMAN. He is on the other side of the room.

Senator WHERRY. I will tell you what he is going to do. Off the record.

The CHAIRMAN. Off the record. (Remarks off the record.)

Senator WHERRY. One of the requirements is that the military has to certify the permanency of the installations before the insurance loan is made.

The CHAIRMAN. Do not forget, too-
Senator WHERRY. See what I mean, Senator Sparkman!

Senator SPARKMAN. I think I see what you are driving at. In other words, you are trying to get proper incentives that will enable the building of these, and you think that a 25-year amortization is needed in connection with this assurance of purpose?

Senator WHERRY. That is right.

The CHAIRMAN. And we want to stop this endless succession of amendments to appropriation bills which continue to spend the taxpayers' money to build houses.

Senator WHERRY. This will be done the private-enterprise way, and the only time you will have a loss or a subsidy, if you want to call it that, is when an installation might have to be moved out. War might change the situation. Then you would have a loss because they have to certify they are permanent military installations.

That might be a benefit to all Senators to know once you have an air base or an installation it is going to be permanent. I wish I had done this a year ago, because we lost a great major installation.

Senator SPARKMAN. You have a little inducement to Senators to vote for this bill.

Senator TOBDr. You are not at all afraid they will call this socialistic, are you?

Senator WHERRY. No, this is private enterprise all the way.

Senator TOBEY. Now they call everything socialistic in a blanket indictment.

Senator WHERRY. Except this bill. I do not care what they call it, just so they do not call it bad names. I want this to go through. I have lost the one that I wanted—at Kearney, Nebr. It is gone. I do not suppose we will ever get it back, although we are trying to make it so attractive they will move back. I want to say I have a great respect for the Secretary of Air; I think he is doing a great job.

Senator Tobey. The Secretary of Agriculture?

Senator WHERRY. Air. Do not misunderstand me. But we lost this installation at Kearney, Nebr. because we did not have houses. There might be some other reasons, but the main thing was the housing situation. I went out there with the Secretary. I could not tell those good people out there that we were going to take it away from them. I asked him to go with me. Ile went out there with me, and we had a real meeting of the town people, and we went around and looked at these housing installations. Personally, I do not think they have

I anything better than what they had in Kearney, just between us, but I certainly would not want to say that they did not need housing at any of these places.

I have tried to make a convincing argument on the fact that there is urgent need for this housing. This will not benefit us at Kearney. That installation is gone. But it will benefit every locality where there is a military base. I hope you will look at it in this respect. This is more than a housing problem. To me, this is a nationaldefense problem. You can train these men, you can spend millions and millions and millions of dollars, and they leave the service and go to private enterprise because they cannot find suitable housing facilities to live where they are assigned to live. They have no choice. They have to live there.

The CHAIRMAN. I might only say this to the Senator. He mentioned air bases many times. But it also applies to Army and Navy installations.

Senator WHERRY. Yes, sir. All military installations I mentioned an air base because that was my experience.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Capehart had a question.

Senator CAPEHART. I am wondering if you would be willing to amend your amortization to 60 months instead of 300 ?

Senator WHERRY. I would like to, but I tell you the Housing Authority will not do it.

Senator CAPEHART. Wait a minute. The Housing Authority is not writing this legislation.

Senator WHERRY. I know, but I tell you. That is all right with me. That would be an added inducement. If the committee wants to make it a smaller amount, all right.

Senator CAPEHART. Of course, I have introduced a bill to permit the amortization of all facilities in 60 months.

Senator WHERRY. Well, Senator, if the committee so desires, that would suit me fine, but I want the committee to do it and not Senator Wherry.

Senator CAPEHART. I cannot conceive of private industry going out 15 or 20 miles and building houses and not being able to amortize them in less than 5 years.

Senator WHERRY. I tell you another reason, Senator Capehart, why I would hesitate to do that. If we did not get an agreement on the amortization here, this is a taxation matter and in the Senate it would be subject to a point of order, and out it would go, and then you would have nothing.

The CHAIRMAN. You would have to get two-thirds.

Senator WHERRY. Yes. Now, that is one reason why I hesitate to do it over here. Now, in the House there is a companion bill just like this exactly, word for word I think, by Congressman Deane from North Carolina. Now, if you wanted to make a change in the amortization period, you might start over there.

I want to try to get along with Mr. Foley, because I want Mr. Foley to give us 95-percent insurance, and I think he ougḥt to give us a 25 amortization. It ought to be an inducement.

Senator CAPEHART. I do not quite understand the able Senator. Is Mr. Foley writing this legislation, or are we writing it? I want to get along with Mr. Foley too, but I am not going to let Mr. Foley accept my responsibility:

Senator WHERRY. Well, the Senator can offer any amendments that he cares to, and then we can go over them on the floor of the Senate. I feel that this bill has been given very, very careful considera

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tion, and I think if this bill were passed out of this committee in its
present form, possibly with even lowering the $9,000 unit to $8,100 if
you feel so inclined, but I would want you to examine the prices pretty
carefully although I agree with the statement made by Senator Spark-
man, it will go through both houses, the Senate and the House. And if
it does, Senator Capehart, it will get a lot of construction. Then if you
want to amend it on the floor you have a perfect right.

The CHAIRMAN. It will save a lot of taxpayers money too.
The next witness is Secretary Symington.

Senator WHERRY. I want to thank the Senator and all the members for their very fine consideration and questions.

Senator TOBEY. Your visits are too infrequent.

The CHAIRMAN. Without objection we shall proceed at this point with the consideration of S. 1433 which has been reported unanimously by the Subcommittee on the Reconstruction Finance Corporation with an amendment, as contained in the wording added to the bill before

The amendment simply adds clarifying language to the bill to. make clear the intent of the committee that when the Reconstruction Finance Corporation determines or estimates the return to the Government that would result through the Government itself transporting and treating low-grade tin concentrates or tin-bearing materials in any Government-owned or controlled facility and transporting and selling the pig tin recovered therefrom, that declaration or estimate shall be conclusive upon individuals or companies bidding for such concentrates or tin-bearing materials.

Senator SPARKMAN. I move that the bill as amended by the Subcommittee on the Reconstruction Finance Corporation be reported favor-ably to the Senate.

The CHAIRMAN. Without objection it shall be so ordered. Is there objection?

The Chair hears none.
The bill as amended shall be reported favorably to the Senate.
Go ahead, Mr. Symington.

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Senator Tobey. May I interpolate a comment? It is a

It is a personal one, and I am very sincere. I want to express the hope, shared, I doubt not, by many others here, that you are not affected by the virus of resigning from these key positions that has been manifested in Washington lately, and that you will stay on the job.

Secretary SYMINGTON. Thank you very much, Senator. I appreciate that.

The CHAIRMAN. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
The CHAIRMAN. Go ahead, Mr. Symington.

Secretary SYMINGTON. Mr. Chairman, and members of the committee, I appreciate this opportunity to appear before the committee on behalf of the National Military Establishment in support of this legislation to provide homes for our military personnel.

The National Military Establishment considers that the enactment of this legislation is essential to the efficiency of the armed services..

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Present housing facilities for military and civilian personnel of the National Military Establishment are so totally inadequate in numbers as to fail utterly in meeting the demands. This proposed legislation would greatly stimulate construction by private enterprise of housing units needed by the National Military Establishment.

In order to attract and hold the highly trained, experienced, and technical personnel now required by the Departments of the Army, the Navy, and the Air Force, it is essential that this personnel be afforded an opportunity to live comfortable and normal lives insofar as military duty permits on a reasonable parity with the average American citizen. Most of them do not now have this privilege.

For example, in my recent travels to various bases, some of the conditions we have found are almost unbelievable. At Mather Field, Calif., families are living in converted barracks-type buildings where it is necessary to use community bath and cooking

facilities. The same applies to Mitchel Field, N. Y. At Chanute Field, Ill., there are several families living in a converted mid-Victorian house where only outside toilets are available. I could name many more specific examples of which the above are typical.

At this point may I deviate to say that at Muroc Lake, jointly operated and used by the Army, Navy, and Air Force, and possibly the most important base of all because it is where we do most aircraft testing, conditions are simply unbelievable. I saw 17 families living with one wash basin and one toilet. I do not mean one group of wash basins and one group of toilets, but just one wash basin and one toilet.

Senator Cain. Would you permit me to ask a question about that situation? Is that a new base?

Secretary SYMINGTON. Not too new, no, sir. Senator Cain. I can appreciate many distressing situations arising if there has been an expansion of a program which has not permitted sufficient time to build the necessary accommodations, and so on.

Secretary SYMINGTON. Well, of course, I know the Air Force picture better than I do the others, but the Air Force grew, under what you might call the logic of war, from 25,000 to two and a half million people within about 5 years; and then it dropped back, but to nothing like 25,000. It has now over 400,000 military people. So all our bases are pretty much in that condition, although it is true that the other services have the same problem. I know more about the Air Force. Senator CAPEHART. Mr. Secretary, do you know how

you need at the moment in Air, Navy, and Army?

Secretary SYMINGTON. I do not quite get your question, Senator the Air Force

Senator CAPEHART. Take the Air Force. How many units would you say were needed at the moment?

Secretary SYMINGTON. About 121,000 to do the job.
Senator CAPEHART. That would be for single men and married ?

Secretary SYMINGTON. Of that 121,000, 50,000 are essential for people who are supplied quarters. In addition to that, there are people who are not normally supplied quarters, 71,000 more who must have some place to live. This does not include barracks; they are not in the discussion.

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Senator CAPEHART. Have you made any survey as to how many facilities or houses or units, if you had 121,000, it would leave for other purposes? That is, for other people to rent?

Secretary SYMINGTON. I do not quite get your question, Senator Capehart.

Senator CAPEHART. I am wondering if anyone has made a survey. For example, if we pass this legislation and there are 121,000 units built, are the camps and the bases so located that it would relieve 121,000 units, let us say, for civilians to rent in cities that are now occupied by members of the armed services?

Secretary SYMINGTON. I think I can answer that question in a general way. You will find, as Senator Wherry pointed out, that many, if not most, of the bases are 5, 10, 15 miles from towns. In that case these people naturally want a place nearby for their wives and their children—these military people. They will relieve considerably the housing shortage in many of the towns. If they get housing near the base they would not have the commuting problem, therefore would prefer the latter.

Senator CAPEHART. Yes. I was thinking in terms of these bases that are located close to the large cities. Now, there, of course, it would serve a real purpose. But if they are out in the thinly populated sections near a small town, for example, where possibly if they vacate the houses they are now occupying there would be nobody to fill the vacancies. I am just wondering if we could get up some sort of map or some statistics on that particular phase of it!

Secretary SYMINGTON. Yes; we can do that.

Senator CAPEHART. For example, in Indianapolis, if these units were constructed at Stout Field or Fort Harrison, it certainly would help the housing situation in Indianapolis. Now, if they were constructed down at Camp Atterbury or down at George Field, the help would not be so great.

Secretary SYMINGTON. Well, there you have the administrative problem

Senator CAPEHART. That is right.

Secretary SYMINGTON. Of putting the houses where you need them the most.

Senator CAPEHART. That is right. I am just wondering if we can get some statistics.

Secretary SYMINGTON. I will be glad to furnish a map and statistics.

Senator WHERRY. Mr. Chairman, will the Senator yield for a question? The Chief of the Air Service knows that your department did submit figures to us after research had been made, and if the Senator from Indiana would like to have that statement from my testimony I would be glad to call to his attention that the research made and the investigation made by the Air Force revealed that there were 117,000 units needed at this time. I am giving the minimum figures now, not the maximum figures, but taking the minimum; 107,000 were needed by the Army in their camps. The Navy gave us about 30,000 to 50,000. But, taking their figure of 30,000 as the minimum, it is 254,000 units that are needed by the military at this time.

Secretary SYMINGTON. All told.
Senator WHERRY. On their own research.

Senator CAPEHART. Those are very interesting figures. I would like to see a map of the bases of the United States and possibly the num

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