increased defense and entitlements. And yet we are trying to balance the budget. We are balancing the budget on the back of what has made this country great, in my opinion, the ability to have innovative ideas and pursue those. And a statement my father told me, he said, a long time ago, at 63 it is a long time ago. But he said, son, in this country you have the right to go broke. And I did not understand that at that tender age. But I do now, because I had the right to pursue a dream. I am not sure that my grandchildren will have the same field of pursuit that I had. It has changed and it is different, you know. When I first started growing up we would get 100 pounds of ice every other day, and the man would make some money by bringing it from town. And finally they dug the holes and put in the poles and brought electricity out there. And we started, like our boys and friends in town did, you know, it was quite an experience for me. We always had something new and we could pursue it. I am very, very concerned about so much advancement and we are not able to tick it off and stay with it. And that is why I do not want to lose in what we are doing here the opportunity to continue to whet, as we would say, the young prospective physicist's, scientist's appetite to get into a field and to work. And let me just pitch out one more item. If we should in our judgment, and I started to say wisdom but I am not sure Congress has much wisdom. It makes a judgment every so often, based on the wisdom we have been given. What if in some of these fields where we make the grants, loans, et cetera, that if they pursue these fields that we forgive them of their indebtedness? Do you think that would have any results, would that jar anything? Say, in your physics field or whatever it might be, and they pursue it to their doctoral level, and then they go out into the world, and they owe us money, from the grant or loan to pursue their education. If they do that, we as a government will say, if you pursue that field, at some point we will be in the posture, or in the position of forgiving you. We would have to work out the regulations or the rules, and Dr. Brinkman you- Dr. BRINKMAN. Well, I guess my general impression is that that is not a big effect. Senator FORD. That is not being effective. Dr. BRINKMAN. A big effect. Senator FORD. Oh. Dr. BRINKMAN. In the sense that most graduate students in sciences are funded by some means or another, so that they are not spending their own money and going into enormous debts. Senator FORD. But would they not then be obligated to AT&T? If AT&T is funding them? Or―― Dr. BRINKMAN. No, I want to be very explicit. AT&T has a fellowship program, a number of fellowship programs, a fairly large set of programs. Senator FORD. Yes, I understand that. Dr. BRINKMAN. And we do not make any of our people that we give fellowships to obligated to us in any way. Dr. FISHER. I hate to interrupt you, Bill, but I understand, Mr. Chairman, that you are also referring to the undergraduates. Senator FORD. That is correct, yes. Dr. FISHER. I know from personal cases, you are addressing the graduate students, and I know from a personal case very close to me that paying off that undergraduate debt is something that hangs over the individual's head. Senator FORD. And prevents the pursuit, sometimes. Dr. FISHER. Well, is a discouragement. And if you look at the discouragement at the early stages, especially if we look at bringing minorities and women in, then that seems to me it gets to be a very big discouragement. I think what I agree with Dr. Brinkman is at the stage we get to graduate school, that is not the problem. But we have to be worried for our future in this country at the high schools and at the undergraduate levels, and feeding them into the areas that are important to us and giving the people the opportunity. That is where I see the problem. Most of us, I think, look at it, you know, they are there as graduate students, where do they go with their careers then? But I understood you to be addressing the earlier stage. Senator FORD. It is just like the professor told me when I started, he said, you will not like me at all when you leave this institution. But he said, by damn, there may be the answer to cancer in this room and I am going to try to drag it out of you. And he worked awful hard at it. Of course, he made a politician out of me, he drove me from that field. And you can blame it all on him. Gentlemen, there may be an effort, not in this Congress but in the 101st Congress, to look at the total scientific investment, I am talking about the whole field now, of the Federal government, and it could be focused in this small subcommittee. If you have any thoughts, if you have any druthers, if you have any direction for those of us that are honestly, sincerely trying to reach a point where we can see some improvement and generate some thought and some interest through what we can do, and when Senator Domenici talked about almost 23,000 in the Department of Energy, you begin to look at how big we are. And are we so big that we have lost the basic thoughts? Are we so limited to categories that we will not get out of it? There is no fluid ability? We need some advice and counsel from some of the best minds, and I am one who likes to see it spread out rather than limited to the Cornells of this world, as Dr. Fisher said it. Of course he said, when he went there it was not one of the better ones, but after he got there it became one of them. And so, Dr. Fisher, I do not mind if a man tooteth his own horn. I have been doing that for a long time. People have agreed with me so far. Only I need 51 percent, you may not need quite that large a percentage. So I want you to think about that, because I believe, I honestly believe that it is coming. A procedure as it relates to encourage 88-418 O 88-8 ment in undergraduate and graduate work in all these fields is something that will come maybe this Congress. Because we are honestly looking at it right now, to whet the appetite and to help those who have the better and brighter opportunities to move forward, and I think it requires reorganization of the procedure this government uses. Because we find ourselves not only spreading things too thin in various and sundry departments, you know, in this area, we find it in others. And once you go too far in one place you find that the gap is reduced on the other side. And so it is like the water in the bucket, however it is tilted that is the way it levels out. Gentlemen, I thank you. You have been most kind. Does anybody want to wind up here? Dr. BRINKMAN. Well, you were commenting on planning and introducing young people into the field. And one of the things that I, one of my issues on that is concentration of fellowship awards on the students rather than on the university faculty. And I think that if you want to do more in that direction, getting recognition for achievement as early as possible for students that do things in science is very, very important. Senator FORD. What is early as possible, Dr. Brinkman? Dr. BRINKMAN. Even in the undergraduate days. Senator FORD. Dr. Quigg was talking about seniors and juniors in high school. Dr. QUIGG. Or even junior high school students. Senator FORD. Even junior high school. I have a granddaughter who is 12, and she amazes me with what she can do. Had a computer in the second grade. And I have said that more than once, but you know, when you are in the second grade and you have a computer that you share with another student, and then she gets one at home, things are beginning to progress pretty rapidly for this old man. Dr. FISHER. I certainly second the fellowships and scholarships for young people. It makes them feel and their parents feel and society feel that these are the important goals of a country, and you give it to the individual. And, Mr. Chairman, I would like to thank you for your patience in listening to people tell you a lot of things that you clearly knew very well and understood already. Senator FORD. Well, you know, I found out that I would rather hear it twice than not at all. Thank you all very, very much. [Whereupon, at 11:40 a.m., the hearing was adjourned.] APPENDIX ADDITIONAL MATERIAL SUBMITTED FOR THE RECORD The American Society of Suite 218 1825 K Street, N.W. Washington, DC 20006-1202 202-785-3756 Statement on the U.S. Department of Energy FY 1989 Budget Request As it relates to Funded University Research Submitted to Subcommittee on Energy, Research and Development Mr. Chairman and Members of the Committee: We are pleased to have the opportunity to address the 1989 budget of the U.S. Department of Energy, with particular attention paid to its effect on engineering research carried on in U.S. universities. This statement has been prepared by a task force of the Board on Basic Engineering of the American Society of Mechanical Engineers (ASME). Our society, which celebrated its centennial year in 1980, has a current membership of 118,000, including 22,000 students. Our statement represents the opinion of our task force and the leadership of the Board; rather than an official position of ASME. The subject of energy in its broadest connotation is a central focus of the mechanical engineering profession. ASME, as the principal technical society of the profession, is, therefore, of the U.S. very interested in and generally supportive Department of Energy budget; however, we here are focusing on those positions of the FY 1989 budget which relate directly to energy-related research at our universities, both public and private. The term "engineering research" is not well understood or agreed upon by most non-engineers. Research, in general, is concerned with new knowledge and understanding of our world. Engineers engage in research activities covering the broad spectrum from fundamental studies to those which are applied in nature. We use |