the next day and said they apologized, and said this would not happen again.

Mr. FINDLEY. Did either of the others cite any examples of physical torture?

JACKSON WAS HUNG BY WRISTS

Sergeant JACKSON. I would like to mention that during the period of interrogation, there were times they were using rope around our wrists; after pulling my arms to my body, they would stand me on a block of wood and string the rope up and then kick the block of wood out. It was quite an agonizing position to be in. My shoulders were dislocated and also my elbow at one point. But the only thing that helped me was that after so much pain, you don't feel it anyway. Mr. FINDLEY. I didn't catch the first part of that. You said they suspended you by tying ropes around your hands, is that correct? Sergeant JACKSON. Yes sir.

Mr. FINDLEY. About how many times did that occur?

Sergeant JACKSON. Four times, sir, for a period of 4 to 6 hours at a time. And coming up on the third to fourth hour, I would always lapse into unconsciousness so I would be cut down to get a break, and this was the only thing. The higher ranking personnel in the camp would say, "We have a just policy toward prisoners, prisoners are not beaten," but then they would leave the area and leave us under supervision of the guards, sort of like turning their backs, and I am sure they were aware of what was going on. At that time, the guards would play what we called the shilly games like punching and kicking and harassment.

FORCED TO DIG, LIE IN OWN GRAVE

Mr. FINDLEY. Do you have anything to add, Captain?

Captain CAMACHO. Yes, sir. I would like to add that immediately after I was captured, with my elbows tied behind my back in this manner, one of the Vietcong soldiers or North Vietnamese or whatever he was at that time, came over while I was being taken away and I saw him out of the corner of my eye and at this time he struck me a blow with the butt of an M1 rifle that he had, which caused a 2-inch gash in the back of my head. That rendered me unconscious for a few minutes. The thing that brought me to was they were dragging me across the barbed wire of our camp at that time, and that is when I came to because of the pain that was caused by the barbs, and I was being drug over the wire. My fellow prisoners were also drug across the wire. They could have taken us out one of the gates. I didn't see any use for this.

In our particular case our lives were threatened throughout our captivity to the extent that they said, "Dig your own grave, lie down in it," and have the guards come over and point their weapons at you, and simulate bolt cocking and giving the command to fire. Mr. FINDLEY. You say you were required to dig your own grave, lie in it, and then be confronted with a guard who cocked his rifle? How often did that occur?

Captain CAMACHO. That happened once in one particular camp that we were in. The reason that brought this about was that they wanted us to sharpen punji stakes for them for security of that camp that we were in. We refused to. Of course, we did our best to

65-310-72-pt. 2- -5

keep from doing it but the treatment we were getting was so bad that, I had been in charge of the other prisoners of war, and I told them OK, I will take charge, I will be responsible for whatever action that comes from this, but that was caused on that one particular day. Mr. FINDLEY. When you were required to dig the grave, was this done in the presence of others in the camp area?

Captain CAMACHO. No, sir. Their camps, sir, their main headquarters, what you might say of the camp, was isolated. This particular camp was about 50 to 60 meters from main headquarters. That is where our cages were at generally, on the outskirts of one of the

camps.

VIEW OF RELEASE PROPOSAL

Mr. FINDLEY. Mr. Chairman, I have one more question. I would like to inform the witnesses that this subcommittee recently reported to the full committee and the full committee approved a bill which recommends to our Government that it attempts to arrange for the simultaneous unconditional release of up to 1,600 North Vietnamese POW's held in the South, bring them all together at one staging area, release them without condition, and at the same time make an appeal to the North Vietnamese, Vietcong, and Pathet Lao for humane treatment from their side. Do you have any reaction to this proposal? Do you think it is a good move?

Captain CAMACHO. I think it is a good move, sir. However, there are two things that might happen. One is refusal of the South, or prisoners held in the South, to go back to the North or the North accepting them. The other thing is that they might just go back and join the ranks or be forced into ranks. Overall, I think it is a good move on our behalf to seek our prisoners back through this move. Mr. FINDLEY. It certainly demonstrates the gulf that exists between our attitude on POW's and that of the enemy.

Captain CAMACHO. Yes, sir.

Mr. FINDLEY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. ZABLOCKI. Mr. Broomfield.

RECEIPT OF MAIL IN POW CAMP

Mr. BROOMFIELD. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I direct this question to anyone. During your confinement did you receive any mail at all from the United States from your loved ones?

Sergeant Pitzer. At no time, sir, in any case.

Sergeant Jackson. At no time did I receive any mail.

Captain CAMACHO. I received one letter during the 24 or so months that I was in captivity, and this at just the last stages before I made my escape. This was prior to the two captains coming into the camp. I received one letter from my relatives and that was it. The reason that I feel that a lot of our mail did not go out is because during our sessions we were always asked to put in our letters, write our folks and relatives back home, and state that they should join these antiwar movements back in the States, and if you did not put that in the letter, you could assume that it never left because the interpreter always came back and said, "but you don't say nothing about how long you are being in Vietnam," and so they would just throw the letter back in the trash.

TOLD OF U.S. ANTIWAR STATEMENTS

Mr. BROOMFIELD. Sergeant Jackson, you mentioned that at one time or another they brought up the racial problems in the United States. Were you also given information about statements that were made in the United States by prominent citizens regarding the war?

Sergeant JACKSON. Yes, sir; on three or four occasions I would be talked to by some of the higher ranking personnel and they would also try to justify them giving me the information by saying this was what someone in your Government is saying, or this is what some prominent or leading figure is saying, this is what a black leader in the United States is saying, in order to try to get me thinking along the same lines.

CAMP FOR "PROGRESSIVE" POW'S

Mr. BROOMFIELD. Should you agree to those statements that they were asking you to affirm, did they promise you special benefits? Sergeant JACKSON. They told me that there was a camp in South Vietnam that was used for what they called "progressive prisoners" if I agreed or if I improved my attitude. My attitude stayed bad apparently. I would always get told at least one time a day that my attitude must improve, and I could be sent to this good place and would be allowed to practice religious services, I would have good food, I would play a sport, and my living conditions would be greatly improved.

PROPAGANDA BROADCASTS

Mr. BROOMFIELD. Sergeant Pitzer?

Sergeant PITZER. Yes, I recall, sir, as far as propaganda goes, we were required every Sunday morning to listen to a radio broadcast or radio liberation. This was possibly broadcast out of Cambodia. They had 15minute tapes that were taped here in the United States and directed toward the black people and they played jazz music and gave us sports and then the broadcast would say, "What are you Americans doing in Vietnam when you have statesmen and Congressmen and Senators back in the United States who are protesting the war and saying that you should not be here, and when you got your higher officials stating that you should not be in Vietnam, why are you people in here to be captured to start with?"

Mr. BROOMFIELD. Captain, did you have any comments?

Captain CAMACHO. Yes, sir; we got the same business except in our case we got three broadcasts. We got "Radio Peking" and "Hanoi Hannah," and also the Liberation Radio. We were required to listen to these broadcasts prior to eating our meals. In some cases our meals were served, well, I would not call them meals, all they were was rice and salt, and we did at least have a meal warm, but in a lot of cases we were forced to sit there and listen to the radio or else there would not be any meal at all. So in this respect we would listen to the thing and then get our rice, but as far as prominent people back in the States, groups, and Congressmen and Senators, like Sergeant Pitzer said, yes, sir, we did. A lot that was shown to us was our own news media, the Chicago Times, New York Times, newspapers throughout the United States, Life magazine, Newsweek. They have access to all sorts of

media and everything that they could possibly throw at us during our brainwashing sessions, your antiwar movement back in the States, and all of this was rubbed in. I was really surprised to see that they had this much news media coming in from the States.

LETTER FROM POW COMMITTEE OF MICHIGAN

Mr. BROOMFIELD. Mr. Chairman, I would like to conclude by asking permission to insert material relative to these hearings at this point in the record.

Mr. ZABLOCKI. Without objection the material will be included in the record at this point.

Dear Bill: On pages 499-511 of the 1971 hearings, a five part article by Seymour M. Hersh is reprinted.

I would like to request that two rebuttals be included in the next printing of these hearings, or if that is impossible, that the rebuttals be entered into the Congressional Record with specific reference to the Hersh articles.

The rebuttals were in response to the Hersh articles appearing in the Detroit Free Press. Virgil O'Connor is, as you know, President of the POW family association in Michigan. John S. Knight is President of Knight Newspapers, owner of the Detroit Free Press.

We would also appreciate copies of these rebuttals being forwarded to Mr. Meacham.

Yours very truly,

ROBERT J. FARR.
PRISONER OF WAR COMMITTEE OF MICHIGAN,
Troy, Mich., March 3, 1971.

Mr. LEE HILLS,

President and Publisher,

Detroit Free Press.

Dear Mr. HILLS: I have read with great interest Seymour M. Hersh's article of Sunday Feb. 21, 1971, "Who Is Telling Us the Truth About Our Prisoners of War", and the subsequent editorial on Thursday, Feb. 25, 1971, on the same subject. Because of the many inaccuracies and misrepresentations contained therein, I can scarcely believe that his article was the result of "extensive interviews with military personnel, government officials, released prisoners and families of POW's." I rather believe that Seymour M. Hersh is trading on his reputation as a Pulitzer Prize winner.

I do not think that two pages of Sunday newsprint should have been used to confuse and obscure the POW issue, nor do I think that the violation of basic humanitarian rights, rights as defined and concurred in by over 125 nations, can be adequately dealt with in one brief paragraph. The issue of the POW's is clear. Americans are being held captive by the North Vietnamese Viet Cong, and the Pathlet Lao under conditions that are in violation of humanitarian rights spelled out in the 1949 Geneva Convention.

To dismiss all charges of brutality and non-compliance with humanitarian rights against the enemy, because of the inferred ambiguity of one charge of brutality is reminiscent of a comparable attitude sometimes exhibited in our Court system. Rulings that permit self confessed killers to go free, not because they did not commit the crime that they were charged with, but rather because of a flaw in the judicial process. And so it is with Seymour Hersh's article. His concern obviously is not for the 339 men admittedly held by the North Viet

namese, the 78 by the Viet Cong, the 3 by the Pathet Lao, or the fate of over 1,000 men missing in action. He makes no mention of returnee Col. Norris Overly's 29 consecutive days of being bound hand and foot, forced to lie face down on an earthen floor, returnee Major Rowe's account of this 51⁄2 years of captivity by the Viet Cong, the testimony of Ramone S. Eaton of the American Red Cross concerning the constant refusal by the North Vietnamese to permit inspection of their POW camps, no reference to men held for years without being permitted to write even one letter, one postcard to their families. To ignore all of this or to fail to understand the seriousness of these violations while at the same time trying to frame a charge of propaganda, appears to me to be a defect in Seymour Hersh's sense of values.

I am concerned about articles such as these because I am the father of a young man who is a Prisoner of War, a young man, who if he is still alive today, has spent over three of his twenty-three years as a POW under conditions known only to him and his captors. A son from whom we have not received a single letter during his long years of captivity.

Sincerely yours,

Virgil O'Connor. DETROIT FREE PRESS, Detroit, Mich., March 2, 1971.

DEAR MR. FARR: Thank you for sending me a copy of your February 21 letter addressed to Mr. Frank Angelo.

I was offered the article by Seymour Hersh for publication in the Miami Herald and turned it down.

I thought he made no constructive contribution to the POW problem.

Sincerely,

JOHN S. KNIGHT.

[From the Detroit Free Press, Mar. 2, 1971]
DAMAGE TO POW's

(By Robert J. Farr, Secretary-Treasurer, POW Committee of Michigan) Seymour Hersh's article on POWs was not unexpected, it just came sooner than we expected. We believe every act and statement about the POW issue must be measured in terms of relieving the plight of our men held captive. Hersh's article did not contribute to this objective. It is a throwback to the philosophy of the dark days of families isolated from one another and the public, exploited POWs in Hanoi and unknown numbers of unidentified POWs held incommunicado. Hersh's article will never obtain the identification of another American POW, nor will it add one more letter to the few allowed these helpless men now. He offers no alternative to the admittedly amateur efforts of the families of these men to seek humanitarian treatment for their men, and he seeks to inject an atmosphere of duplicity into the entire issue.

Many prominent and informed Americans, including John S. Knight, have supported the appeal for humanitarian treatment of our POWs held by the other side, by advocating adherence to the provisions of the Geneva Accords. They have never undercut the faith and courage of our POW families as Seymour Hersh has attempted to do.

Mr. ZABLOCKI. Mr. Fountain.

DETAILS OF PITZER, JACKSON RELEASE

Mr. FOUNTAIN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I note that Sergeant Pitzer is from the greatest State in the Nation, North Carolina. Sergeant, I also note that you and Sergeant Jackson were released. What is your explanation or how do you account for the fact that you two were selected for release?

Sergeant PITZER. There were three selected all total, sir. Getting back to the propaganda towards the blacks, the two released were