that they do not agree with all that we will probably recommend. But we have worked very closely with the Corporation, kept them advised of what we were proposing to recommend, and will continue to do so, until the report comes up to Congress.

We naturally hope that they will agree with a majority of the things we say, but we would rather have them speak for themselves. Senator LUCAS. How many different agencies of government is the Comptroller's office working on at the present time, in the way of bringing everything up to date?

Mr. WEITZEL. I might say all agencies, Senator. But on the corporation work particularly we started out with, I believe, 101 Government corporations. That number has been reduced now by abolitions and consolidations, but we are strenuously working-and I mean by that we are working day and night-to bring up to date the entire corporation audit program because of just such occasions as the present one.

We feel that one purpose of enacting the Government Corporation Control Act was to enable Congress to be advised of what is going on in Government corporations like Commodity Credit Corporation and to take action based on that knowledge.

Senator LUCAS. Is the slowness in bringing these corporations up to date caused by a lack of personnel?

Mr. WEITZEL. It has been largely, Senator, and I mean by that, lack of qualified personnel. It is extremely difficult to get the right person to make an audit of this type.

This is a comprehensive, over-all audit with a report to the Congress of the condition of Government corporations, the results of their operations, and pertinent comments on those matters. And it is impossible to take an ordinary auditor and have him go into a several billion dollar operation and come up with anything of value.

Senator LUCAS. I agree with you.

But Congress imposed this duty on the Comptroller's office in 1945. Mr. WEITZEL. That is correct, Senator.

Senator LUCAS. This is 1948. A period of over 2 years has elapsed, and you have not completed this audit at this time on the Commodity Credit Corporation to the point where you can really advise the Congress as to what we ought to do.

Mr. WEITZEL. That is correct, Senator. We have advised many committees that we have appeared before, including the Appropriations Committees of both Houses, of the exact situation, and have received much assistance from them. But the largeness of the project and the amount of spade work to be done in making the first audit reports, was tremendous. We have followed the policy of trying to put out a high-standard report which will be of some real value.

We recognize that in the case of Commodity Credit the first report will come rather late, but we still hope to have it here in time to help Congress decide this very question.

Mr. ELLIS. Could I break in on that just a moment? I think I should say in the matter of delay, I do not know whether the Senator has been advised, practically all the reports for fiscal 1945 have been up here, long since, and most of the 1946 reports. The delay is due to not only the sheer size, but as testified, to the impossible state of the records.

Senator LUCAS. I find this: Congress passes a law and places a tremendous responsibility upon some agency, and then will not finish the job by giving the proper personnel to do that job. That is what I am complaining about.

Mr. WEITZEL. I understand your point, Senator.

Senator LUCAS. In other words, if Congress passed a law placing this responsibility upon the Comptroller's office, Congress should not hesitate to give that office whatever personnel is necessary to bring these corporations up to date within a reasonable length of time. It does seem to me that 2 years is a long time.

Mr. WEITZEL. It is, indeed. I want to say that Congress has given the Comptroller General the utmost support. It has simply been a situation where no one could get the proper personnel to do a job like this, in view of the size of the job. It is the biggest auditing job in the world, and the people simply were not available to do the job anywhere in the United States.

We have had the assistance of the American Institute of Accountants of local accounting bodies, and of congressional committees, and every possible assistance from the Bureau of the Budget and the Civil Service Commission. But there just are not enough high-grade public accountants in the United States available and obtainable to perform a job of the size that Congress imposed on the Comptroller General, and one that we think we should have, without some delay.

Senator THYE. How many days a year are you privileged to work in your office. I recognize that there are five of you here before us now. You have been here all morning. I have also witnessed the fact that you have been before many other committees.

I am just wondering how much of your time is actually permitted to be spent in audit work, or how much of your time is spent in the manner that you are spending it this morning, the five of you.

Mr. WEITZEL. Senator, it would be difficult to estimate that. The particular job of Mr. Ellis and myself is to appear before congressional committees that is one of our jobs-and to assist them in matters concerning the General Accounting Office.

Senator THYE. I asked the question off the record when you gentlemen first came in here, as to why it was necessary for the five of you who are qualified auditors to spend your valuable time to appear before this committee this morning. I asked that because I recognize that you are unable to do the work and have been unable to come forward with the report.

Mr. WEITZEL. One answer to that is that due to the lack of time that we had to prepare the statement it was necessary to consult until the last minute. Our man sat up all night preparing the statement.

It is our job to make the audit reports, but unless Congress makes use of the information in the reports we feel that it is a futile job. So we are glad to explain anything in our audits, and to try to make our points clear for the benefit of committees of the Congress. We feel that is part of our job. That is why Mr. Blakemore and Mr. Simpson are here. They are assistant directors of the Corporation Audits Division. But, of course, they have many others working under them who are still on the job back at Commodity Credit Corpo

ration.

Senator THYE. That is the reason I asked the question. I just wanted to know whether there were a lot of lieutenants assigning them

selves to the task of coming in groups in this manner before committees, or whether you had an executive who was appearing before the committees, allowing the others to continue work within the Division. Mr. WEITZEL. That is exactly the arrangement, Senator. Ordinarily the duty would devolve upon one person, perhaps assisted by one technical man, to appear here.

Senator PEPPER. Would you just restate briefly what you regard to be the sphere of the Comptroller's office and the sphere of these separate corporate bodies? You do not set yourself up as a supervising head or general superior of the directing agency, or anything like that, do you?

Mr. WEITZEL. Absolutely not, Senator. As I pointed out in my opening statement we want to be absolutely plain on the point that we are not recommending what policy Congress should set for Commodity Credit Corporation.

Senator PEPPER. Are you assuming to make their decisions for them?

Mr. WEITZEL. Absolutely not. We are required to make recommendations in connection with our reports on their operations.

Senator PEPPER. Only from the viewpoint of the fiscal clarity. Is that not what you are interested in, whether Government money is being spent first for the purpose for which it was appropriated, and secondly, whether any of it has been improperly lost?

Mr. WEITZEL. Exactly. And that involves, in a case like this, the question of whether there is proper accounting control and management within the corporation to prevent improper or wasteful expenditures, and whether there is proper organization to carry out the job which Congress has given the Corporation.

Senator PEPPER. Whether there is proper organization would seem to me to involve their decision. Whether they are doing the job right or not is whether they are doing it competently or incompetently and that would not seem to me to be a matter of concern to the Comptroller's office unless Congress had given you that responsibility.

Mr. WEITZEL. That responsibility, Senator, is in section 105 of the Government Corporation Control Act, and section 106 which says:

The Comptroller General's audit reports, besides financial statements, shall include such comments and information as may be deemed necessary to keep Congress informed of the operations and financial condition of the several corporations, together with such recommendations with respect thereto as the Comptroller General may deem advisable, including a report of any impairment of capital noted in the audit and recommendations for the return of such Government capital or the payment of such dividends as in his judgment should be accomplished. The report shall also show specifically any program, expenditure, or other financial transaction or undertaking observed in the course of the audit which in the opinion of the Comptroller General has been carried on or made without authority of law.

Senator PEPPER. That is your report to Congress?

Mr. WEITZEL. That is the report to Congress. The Senate Committee on Banking and Currency, in reporting that bill, pointed this out about the Comptroller General's audit reports:

The Comptroller General's audit reports should be of great value to the Congress in appraising the results of the Corporation's programs and passing on their requests for further funds to the President in his over-all management of the executive branch, and to the Treasury Department in its fiscal activities. The reports should also assist the corporations themselves in carrying out their responsibilities.

I want to make it plain that none of the recomendations in these reports are mandatory. They are made for the benefit of Congress in passing on the requests of the corporations for funds, for the benefit of the President, the Treasury, and the corporate management.

Senator PEPPER. That is the point I want to make clear. I want it clear that these corporate bodies are not constantly under the managerial or administrative direction or supervision or control of the Comptroller's office. They have a function to discharge, and it is their duty to discharge that function. You have been delegated by the Congress with the authority to make an investigation and general study, and to make reports and recommendations to the Congress, and if Congress wants to do anything that might change the policies or the authority, or vary the functions of the corporate bodies, it is up to Congress to do so.

But just so that there is not any confusion about your Agency being a sort of superior administrative Agency over these corporations; there is no confusion about that, is there?

Mr. WEITZEL. We have no desire, nor would it be proper for us to do so, Senator. In fact, during testimony before the Senate Banking and Currency Committee on this Corporation Control Act the Comptroller General and his representatives made it plain that they did not think it proper for the Comptroller General to participate in the internal management of any Government corporation. There was even a proposal that the Comptroller General be ex officio comptroller of the Corporation. That is absolutely foreign to our desires or our proper sphere.

Senator PEPPER. The other thing is, all you are interested in is not any particular form of bookkeeping or accounting, but just such a recording and such a system of accounts as would make it possible for you to audit them, and to determine whether or not the public money is being properly used?

Mr. WEITZEL. That is correct, Senator. And we recognize the duty of Commodity Credit Corporation to keep its own accounts in the proper form. But we reserve the right to comment where we think their accounts are inadequate.

Senator YOUNG. You believe their accounts have not been kept in proper shape?

Mr. WEITZEL. We believe they have not been. We believe that they are in better shape today.

Senator YOUNG. Who has been in charge of accounts?

The CHAIRMAN. I think we will all agree with Mr. Weitzel and his department have been doing a good job. I, for one, will say that I am glad he comes here and gives us the facts. Undoubtedly he has something that is of interest to any Senator, any committee. Mr. WEITZEL. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I do not want to take up too much time of the committee today. So if you would rather hear us further at a later time we would be glad to conform.

The CHAIRMAN. We can go on here for quite a while yet. You are giving us very valuable information.

Senator AIKEN. I think I ought to explain how Mr. Weitzel happens to be here. Senator Thye and I are members of the Expenditures Committee and we have an active staff whose duty it is to work

STATEMENTS OF FRANK H. WEITZEL, ASSISTANT TO THE COMPTROLLER GENERAL; AND CLARK SIMPSON, ASSISTANT DIRECTOR, CORPORATION AUDITS DIVISION, GENERAL ACCOUNTING OFFICE, WASHINGTON, D. C.

Mr. WEITZEL. Mr. Chairman, we appreciate the opportunity on behalf of the General Accounting Office to come here and make some suggestions on S. 1322, a bill to provide a Federal charter for the Commodity Credit Corporation.

I have here with me, not necessarily to testify, Mr. William L. Ellis, Assistant to the Comptroller General; Mr. Ralph E. Casey, Assistant General Counsel; Mr. Clark Simpson, Assistant Director of the Corporation Audits Division, and Mr. James Blakemore, Assistant Director of the Corporation Audits Division, General Accounting Office.

The CHAIRMAN. You were opposing the pending legislation?

Mr. WEITZEL. We have some suggestions which we believe will improve the legislation, Mr. Chairman. We are in this rather unfortunate position: Congress imposed on the General Accounting Office the obligation of making an annual commercial-type audit of the Commodity Credit Corporation. We do not yet, and will not for a matter of a very few weeks, have that audit report finished which we had hoped to have, and which will enable us to make some more valuable suggestions.

Now, pending that we have this very brief statement to offer this morning, and the offer of any other assistance that we can be to the committee.

I want to explain, too, that we have no quarrel with Commodity Credit Corporation. The present management of the Corporation has contributed and cooperated heartily toward the completion of this audit that the Comptroller General's people are making. I want to mention, too, for the record that perhaps the forefather of the Government Corporation Control Act under which Commodity Credit and all Government corporations are now audited by the Comptroller General was Public Law 240 which Congress enacted in 1944, and which was advocated by both the Comptroller General and Commodity Credit, and the Secretary of Agriculture, to have the accounts of Commodity Credit audited by the public auditor for the Congress. So I want that understood in making this statement.

At the outset we want to emphasize that we are expressing no opinion relative to the wisdom of continued support of the prices of agricultural commodities. It should be understood also that it is not our purpose to so circumscribe the authority of the Corporation, if it is continued as an agency of the United States, as to render it incapable of carrying out its assigned functions and discharging its responsibilities economically and efficiently.. On the contrary, our objective with respect to Commodity Credit Corporation, as is true in the case of all the Government corporations, is the construction of the best possible instrumentality for the purpose of carrying out the functions assigned to it by the Congress. We do have some suggestions, though, which bear upon the operating efficiency and somewhat upon the proper organization of the Corporation in its relation to the pro