besides, these two or three, for aught I can see or gather from the text, may as well be of any other church as the Roman.

They urge Luke x. 16.

“ He that heareth you, heareth me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth me.”

But this will not do you any service, unless of. favour we grant, that you here, is you of the church of Rome; and but very little, if that be granted; for then every bishop, every priest must be infallible. For there is not the meanest of the messengers of Christ, but this may be verified of him, That he that heareth him, heareth Christ; and he that despiseth him, despiseth Christ.

They urge out of John xiv. 15, 16.

I will ask my Father, and he will give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you for ever, even the Spirit of truth.”

But here, also, what warrant have we, by you, to understand the church of Rome? whereas he that compares verse 26. with this, shall easily perceive, that our Saviour speaks only of the apostles in their own persons; for there he says, going on in the same discourse, “ The Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said to you :" which cannot agree but to the apostles themselves in person; and not to their successors,

who had not yet been taught, and therefore had not forgotten any thing, and therefore could not have them brought to their remembrance. But what if it had been promised to them and their successors? Had they no successors but them of the Roman church? This indeed is pretended and cried up, but for proofs of it, disiderantur.

Again, I would fain know whether there be any certainty, that every pope is a good Christian, or whether he may not be, in the sense of the Scripture, of the world ? If not, how was it that Bellarmine should have cause to think, that such a rank of them went successively together to the devil ?


III.-A Conference concerning the Infallibility of the

Roman church : proving, that the present church of Rome either errs in her worshipping the blessed Virgin Mary, or that the ancient church did err in condemning the Collyridians as heretics.

1. Demand. Whether the infallibility of the Roman church be not the foundation of their faith, who are members of that church?

Ans. The infallibility of the church is not the foundation, but a part, of their faith, who are members of the church. And the Roman church is held to be the church, by all those who are members of it.

Reply. That which is the last reason, why you believe the Scripture to be the written word of God, and unwritten traditions his unwritten word, and this or that to be the true sense of Scripture, that is to you the foundation of your faith; and such unto you is the infallible authority of the Roman church. Therefore unto you it is not only a part of your faith, but also such a part, as is the foundation of all other parts. Therefore you are deceived, if you think there is any more opposition between being a part of the faith, and the foundation of other parts of it, than there is between being a part of a house, and the foundation of it. But whether you will have it the foundation of your faith, or only a part of it, for the present purpose, it is all one.

2. Demand. Whether the infallibility of the Roman church be not absolutely overthrown, by proving the present Roman church is in error, or that the ancient was?

Ans. It is, if the error be in those things wherein she is affirmed to be infallible; viz. in points of faith.

Reply. And this here spoken of, whether it be lawful to offer tapers and incense to the honour of the blessed Virgin, is, I hope, a question concerning a point of faith.

3. Demand. Whether offering a cake to the Virgin Mary, be not as lawful, as to offer incense, and tapers, and divers other oblations, to the same Virgin?

Ans. It is as lawful to offer a cake to her honour, as wax-tapers; but neither the one, nor the other, may be offered to her, or her honour, as the term or object of the action. For, to speak properly, nothing is offered to her, or her honour, but to God in the honour of the blessed Virgin. For incense, it is a foul slander, that it is offered any way to the blessed Virgin; for that incensing, which is used in the time of mass, is ever understood by all sorts of people to be directed to God only.

Reply. If any thing be offered to her, she is the object of that oblation : as if I see water, and through water something else, the water is the object of my sight, though not the last object. If I honour the king's deputy, and by him the king, the deputy is the object of my action, though not the final object: and to say these things may be offered to her, but not as to the object of the action, is to say, they may be offered to her, but not to her. For what else is meant by the object of an action, but that thing, If you say,

on which the action is employed, and to which it is directed ?

that by the object of the action you mean the final object only, wherewith the action is terminated; you should then have spoken more properly and distinctly, and not have denied her simply to be the object of this action, when you mean only she is not such a kind of object; no more than you may deny a man to be a living creature, meaning only that he is not a horse.

Secondly, I say, it is not required of Roman catholics, when they offer tapers to the saints, that by an actual intention they direct their action actually to God; but it is held sufficient, that they know and believe, that the saints are in subordination and near relation to God, and that they give this honour to the saints because of this relation; and to God himself rather habitually and interpretative, than actually, expressly, and formally: as many men honour the king's deputy, without having any present thought of the king, and yet their action may be interpreted an honour to the king, being given to his deputy, only because he is his deputy, and for his relation to the king. Thirdly, 1 say, there is no reason or ground in the world for any man to think, that the Collyridians did not choose the Virgin Mary for the object of their worship, rather than any other woman or any other creature, merely for her relation to Christ; and, by consequence, there is no ground to imagine, but that at least habitually and interpretative, they directed their action unto Christ, if not actually and formally. And ergo, if that be a sufficient defence for the papists, that they make not the blessed Virgin - the final

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