Сс Dd Ee to learn, as you would seem, ye would come to the church, ye would resort to the lessons, ye would abide to hear a sermon; for these are the schools, if a man list to learn: it is a token the scholar passeth little for his book, that will never be brought to school. Ye desire ye may not be put off, but that your suit may be considered. And yet this half-year long I have desired of you, and of your brethren, but one sentence; and still, I know not how, I am cast off, and can get nothing at your hands. You call for the special proofs of our doctrine, which would require a whole book; whereas, if you of your part could vouchsafe to bring but two lines, the whole matter were concluded. Yet lest I should seem to fly reckoning, as ye do, or to follow you in discourtesy, I will perform some part of your request, although indeed it be unreasonable. Ff Against your new device of transubstantiation, besides many others whom I will now pass by, ye have the old father and doctor Gelasius, whose judgment I believe ye will regard the more, because he was sometime bishop of Rome, which see, as you have taught, can never err. Gg And is alleged in the decrees: his words be plain: Non desinit esse substantia panis et natura vini1: “ 'It leaveth not to be the substance of bread, and the nature of wine." Hh But, to avoid this authority, some men of your side have been forced to expound these words in this sort: Non desinit esse substantia, hoc est, non desinit esse accidens: "It leaveth not to be the substance of bread, that is to say, it leaveth not to be the accidence, or the form, or the shape of bread." miserable shift. Ii A very Even as right as the scholy expoundeth the text, Dist. iv.: Statuimus, id est, abrogamus3. Yet doctor Smith of Oxford took a wiser way; for his answer is, that Gelasius never wrote those words, and that they hang not together, and that there is no sense nor reason in them. Kk Here have you, that after the consecration there remaineth the substance of bread and wine. LI Now bring ye but one doctor that will say as ye say, that there remaineth only the accidents, or shapes of bread and wine; and I will yield. Mm Nn As touching a private mass, Gregory saith in his dialogues, that, before the time of the communion, the deacon was wont in his time to cry unto the people: Qui non communicat, locum cedat alteri: "Whoso will not receive the communion, let him depart and give place to others." To break the ordinance of Christ, and to communicate under one kind only, your own doctor Gelasius calleth it sacrilegium. And Theophilus Alexandrinus saith: Si Christus mortuus fuisset pro diabolo, non negaretur illi poculum sanguinis": "If Christ had died for the devil, the cup of the blood should not be denied him." 00 That the common prayers were used in the common tongue, you have St Basil, St Hierome, St Augustine, St Chrysostom, St Ambrose, and the emperor Justinian: the places be known. Pp You see I disadvantage myself of many things that might be spoken; for at this present I have no leisure to write books. Now must I needs likewise desire you, forasmuch as I have followed your mind so far, either to bring me one old doctor of your side, or else to give us leave to think (as the truth is) ye have none to bring. You desire us to leave talking against you, and no more to deal so unmercifully with you in the pulpits. O master doctor, call you this unmerciful dealing? when you were in autho [Gelas. adv. Eutych. in Mag. Biblioth. Vet. Patr. Col. Agrip. 1618-22. Tom. V. Pars III. p. 671. See before, page 11, note 11.] [Corp. Jur. Canon. Lugd. 1624. Decret. Gratian. Decr. Prima Pars, Dist. iv. Gloss. in can. 4. col. 12.] [ Gregor. Magni Papæ I. Op. Dialog. Lib. II. cap. xxiii. Tom. II. col. 253. See before, page 19, note 16.] [10 Si enim et pro dæmonibus crucifigetur...quod erit privilegium aut quæ ratio, ut soli homines corpori ejus sanguinique communicent, et non dæmones quoque, pro quibus in passione sanguinem fuderit ?— Theophil. Alex. in Mag. Biblioth. Vet. Patr. Epist. Pasch. ii. Tom. IV. p. 717.] 3 [JEWEL.] Ss Tt Vo A aa a Gardiner. b Bonner. • Tonstall. d Cole. And in manner all the rest. rity, ye never could call us other than traitors and heretics; and yet, besides all that, used our bodies as you know. We only tell the people, as our duty is, that you withstand the manifest truth, and yet have neither doctor, nor council, nor scripture for you; and that you have shewed such extremity as the like hath not been seen, and now can give no reckoning why: or if ye can, let it appear. You say our doctrine is yet in doubt. I answer you, to us it is most certain and out of all doubt. But if you for your part be yet in doubt, reason and charity would ye had been quite resolved and out of doubt before ye had dealt so unmercifully for it with your brethren. You are bound, you say, and may not dispute; yet, God be thanked, you are not so bound as ye have bound others. But I would wish the queen's majesty would not only set you at liberty in that behalf, but also command you to shew your grounds. But when ye were at liberty, and a free disputation was offered you at Westminster before the queen's most honourable council and the whole estate of the realm, I pray you, whether part was it that then gave over? And yet then you know ye were not bound. Ye say ye remain still in the faith ye were baptized in. O good master doctor, stand not too much in that point. You know ye have already forsaken a great number of such things as were thought necessary when ye were baptized; and yet, besides that, how many times have some of you altered your faith within the space of twenty years? Remember yourself, who wrote the book "De Vera Obedientia', against the supremacy of Rome? b Who commended it with his preface? Who set it forth with solemn sermons? Who confirmed it with open oath? You have ecclesiam apostolicam, ye say; and we have none. Howbeit, in Bbb all these matters that we now entreat of, we have, as you know, and must needs confess, the old doctors' church, the ancient councils' church, the primitive church, St Peter's church, St Paul's church, and Christ's church; and this, I believe, ought of good right to be called the apostles' church. And I marvel much that you, knowing ye have none of all these, yet should say ye have ecclesiam apostolicam. Ссс Where ye say ye make no innovation, it is no marvel; for in manner all things were altered afore to your hands, as may most evidently appear by all these matters that be now in question between us, wherein ye have utterly changed and abolished the order of the old church, and do nothing but the contrary; and what evident profit the church of God hath gotten by it, I think it a hard matter to declare. Ddd Eee Fff Ggg Hhh You would have the matter turned over to some general council as we would be content to stand by; howbeit, that you think will not be in your time. Notwithstanding, I dare boldly say, such a council will be a great while before ye shall be able to find any doctor, or old council to serve your purpose. But though there were never such a council, yet truth will be truth notwithstanding ; for the council cannot make the falshood' truth, but the thing that is taken to be true, it certifieth only to be true. But what redress can there be looked for of such a council, whereas no man shall be judge, or suffered to speak one way or other, but only such as be openly and justly accused and found faulty, and whereas he, that is himself most out of order, shall be head and reformer of the whole? Both parties, ye say, have waded so far herein, that now they can go no further; and therefore ye would have either part let other alone. If you of your part would have done so when time was, many a godly man had now been alive. Whereas you say, you would have the sayings of both parties weighed by the balance of the old doctors, ye see, that is our only request; and that in the matters ye write of I desire even so to be tried. But why throw ye' away these balance, and, being so earnestly required, why be ye so loth to shew forth but one old doctor of your side? Ye make me believe ye would not have the matter come to trial, only ye set forth the empty names of St Augustine, of St Hierome, of St Chrysostom, of St Basil, of St Cyprian, of Tertullian, of Irenæus, of Dionysius, of the councils, &c.; as the apothecaries oftentimes set forth their painted boxes, and nothing in them: you shew me only the names of the doctors, which I knew afore; but ye shew me not one word in them of the private mass, or of the rest of the matters that lie between us. If ye could have found any thing in them for your purpose, I believe you would not have brought them empty. But that is a policy in the time of siege, when the soldiers within begin to want victuals, to throw forth a few loaves over the walls, that the enemy without may think they have store enough, and so give over the siege. Iii You say I slanderously misreport the late council of Constance. O sir, these words savour too much of your choler, and might better have been spared. I speak more favourably of that council than I might have done. ΚΑΚ For the words of the council be these, speaking namely of the communion under both kinds: Pertinaciter asserentes oppositum, tamquam hæretici arcendi sunt; that is: "They that stubbornly defend and maintain the contrary," that is to say, they that stand in defence of that that Christ commanded to be done and the apostles, which all the old catholic doctors and the whole primitive church observed, "ought to be punished so as is meet for heretics." By these words they are called not schismatics, as I said, but stubborn heretics, which is a great deal more odious. You see therefore my report was more gentle than the council deserved. Whereas you say we could never yet prove the error of one general council, I think your memory doth somewhat deceive you. For, to pass by all other matters, Albertus Pighius, the greatest learned man, as it is thought, of your side, hath found such errors to our hands; for in his Ecclesia' Hierarchia, speaking of the second council holden at Ephesus, which you cannot deny but it was general, and yet took part with the heretic abbat Eutyches against the catholic father Flavianus, he writeth thus: Concilia universalia etiam congregata legitime, ut bene, ita perperam, injuste, impieque judicare et definire possunt": "General councils," saith he, "yea, even such as be lawfully summoned, as they may conclude things well, so may they likewise judge and determine things rashly, unjustly, and wickedly." And of the two councils holden of late years at Constance and at Basil, where as pope John and pope Eugenius were deposed, he saith plainly that they decreed both against reason, and against nature, and against all examples of antiquity, and against the word of God'; and yet both these councils were called general. Ye press me sore that, if I write you not a book of my proofs, it will be thought I do it conscientia imbecillitatis, "for the distrust of the weakness" of my part. Belike you have forgotten wherefore you with all your company not long since openly refused to enter disputation with us at Westminster. Doubtless the greatest part thought it was (as it was indeed) conscientia imbecillitatis, even "for distrust of the weakness" of your part. And what think ye is there now judged of you, that, being so long time required, yet cannot be won to bring one sentence in your own defence? I have afore alleged a few reasons of my part, which by order of disputation I was not bound to do: now let the world judge which of us two flieth conference. I protest before God, bring me but one sufficient authority in the matters I have required; and afterward I will gently and quietly confer with you farther at your pleasure. Wherefore, forasmuch as it is God's cause, if ye mean simply, deal simply; betray not your right, if ye may save it by the speaking of one word. [ Concil. Constant. in Concil. Stud. Labb. et Cossart. Lut. Par. 1671-2. Sess. XIII. Tom. XII. col. 100; where oppositum præmissorum.] [ Ecclesiastica, 1560.] [Testimonio insuper Ephesinum II. et ipsum universale..... Testimonio, inquam, hæc sunt errare posse etiam universalia concilia, etiam congregata legitime, &c.-Pigh. Hierarch. Eccles. Assert. Col. 1538. Lib. VI. cap. xiii. fol. 247. 2.] [7 Sibi ipsis...totius ecclesiæ caput...subjicientes, adversus rerum ordinem et naturam, contra clarissimam evangelicæ veritatis lucem, contra omnem antiquitatis auctoritatem, atque adeo ipsius orthodoxæ ecclesiæ...indubitatam fidem et sententiam.-Id. ibid. cap. ii. fol. 213. 2.] The people must needs muse somewhat at your silence, and mistrust your doctrine, if it shall appear to have no ground, neither of the old councils, nor of the doctors, nor of the scriptures', nor any allowed example of the primitive church to stand upon; and so your fifteen hundred years, and the consent of antiquity and generality, that ye have so long and so much talked of, shall come to nothing. For think not that any wise man will be so much your friend, that in so weighty matters will be satisfied with your silence. Whereas you say, I am not altogether without enemies; I assure you, whosoever be enemy unto me, I for my part am enemy unto no man, but only wish that God's truth may be known of all men. But he that is enemy unto me in this behalf, I fear me, is enemy unto some other, whom he would be loth to name. You suppressed, ye say, your first letters, for that you saw they were too That had been all one to me; for sour words are not enough to quail the truth. Howbeit, to my knowledge, I gave you no evil word to increase that humour. But if ye will still strive against nature, as ye say ye have done now, and conquer the rest of your affections too, I doubt not but we shall soon agree. sour. Here I leave, putting you eftsoons gently in remembrance, that, being so often and so openly desired to shew forth one doctor, or council, &c., in the matters afore mentioned, yet hitherto ye have brought nothing; and that, if ye stand so still, it must needs be thought ye do it conscientia imbecillitatis, for that there was nothing to be brought. JOHN SARUM. 20o Martii. A B 300 D E DOCTOR COLE'S ANSWER TO CERTAIN PARCELS OF THE SECOND SET FORTH IN SUCH SORT AS IT CAME FROM THE Author, It liketh you thus to say, that your readers may think you touch me very sore, where you discover great3 untruth in your writing. For my purpose was to be taught, and to this mark only I shot. You, for lack of good matter, answer, I speak not to the purpose: not to your purpose, but to mine. How oftentimes must I tell you, I come not to teach, but to be taught? Well railed: you shall find that we have more than all you shall be able to answer, when time shall require. These words glistered gold-like, and discloseth in you no will to satisfy my demand; I ween, for lack of stuff. F You say much, and prove nothing: your truths be so open, that none seeth them G but your own side. I have no privilege: when reason and law shall will me to do it, you shall find it; now I stand bound to the contrary, as you know. I must needs think some part of your writings made by some smatterer, as here, for a shew of skill in logic, brought in a place of logic out of all purpose. How frame you this to your purpose? and you shall find me therein true, as I shall happily make you to see, if you drive me to it. So did I too. Your doctrine against transubstantiation is yet to be proved, and no man bound to believe it. And yet, being as true as you would have it seem, yet may you inform the weak and willing to learn. That you are required, that you refuse, and make large offer to no purpose. We brought more than ye were able to answer, all were it no scriptures, nor councils, nor doctors. This argument would I fain see proved. [1 Scripture, 1560, 1609.] [ 29, 1560.] [3 A great, 1560.] [ Glistereth, 1560.] N 0 P ? R S Stout and bold asseveration maketh no proof in the law. Here is again one place that I reckon ye put not in yourself; for it maketh quite against you. For Christ proved the Pharisees were not Abraham's children, and wife for every cause. that a man may not put away his Two purposes against yourself. Gregory proveth a negative; because none of his forefathers ever used the title. As one might say, that you preach is naught, because men in times past taught not so. This part of Gregory serveth no whit to disprove the sovereignty; as Driedo will teach you, if you vouchsafe to read him®. If you read again the place in Aristotle's Topics, you shall there see the better to understand it. He speaketh it where men dispute dialectice, in such sort as we do not; and therefore it served' not your purpose. But I tell you yet once again, I come not to dispute, but to learn. Ridetur, chorda qui semper aberrat eadem. D. Cole will prove it when it cometh to his turn. In the end of this writing ye shall find mine answer to that you here say. The last answer. T When you meddle with law, you shew your skill. I am still in possession of all that ever I thought; and if you put me out of possession by force, I ought to be restored. Had not the priests in the old law good title to sit in Moses' chair? What, you forget yourself: yes, pardy. The law accounteth no man malæ fidei possessorem, after that he hath continued in possession an hundred years. But I pardon you for mistaking the law: it is not your faculty. V I enter no suit against you, and it were folly to shew mine evidence until it may serve and take place. I crave only to be informed, which I cannot obtain. Patientia. Aa Bb Сс Dd When I commence law against you, then this speech may serve you to some purpose. Why I come not to your sermons ? This question is captious; and yet you are not herewith discharged, why you should not instruct me. As men choose their wires, so choose they their teachers. St Augustine, St Chrysostom, &c. tend more to teach than to convince. We stand not in case like: what need so much of one thing? Sermons All that I required may be couched in six lines, and, for ought that I see yet, in less too. Ee Ff It is no discourtesy to refuse to do that wherewith I might forfeit my recognizance. 10 Gg Hh Ii in articulo de transubstantiatione". 12 Gelasius is full answered by Tapper1o, You allege his words otherwise than you find them; which fault I trust groweth on" oversight. Shew what they are, that it be not thought that you devise this of your own fantasy. This gloss you mislike, because you understand not the glosser's meaning. It may stand full well. [5 That, 1560.] [ Deinde manifestum est doctrinam Gregorii in registro non obstare supra dictis, cum et ipse Gregorius ibidem manifeste dicat, Cura totius ecclesiæ et principatus Petro committitur, et tamen universalis pastor non appellatur. Ecce, ubi Gregorius vetat Romanum pontificem non appellari universalem pastorem, ibi et plane asseruit totius ecclesiæ ei curam esse commissam. Aliud ergo appellat universalem pastorem, aliud universalis ecclesiæ pastorem: per universalem pastorem seu episcopum intelligens eum, qui solus esset pastor et episcopus, ita ut alii sint dumtaxat illius vicarii et ministri, et non veri pastores, non veri episcopi, hoc etenim manifeste est falsum. Unde et Romanæ ecclesiæ episcopus vocat se episcopum servum servorum Dei, juxta Salvatoris doctrinam, Qui major est vestrum, erit vester minister. Ceteros episcopos vocat fratres suos, seu coepiscopos, alios autem sacerdotes appellat filios.-Joh. Driedon. a Turnhout De Eccles. Script. et Dogmat. Lov. 1533. Lib. IV. cap. iii. 3. pp. 559, 60.] [7 Serveth, 1560.] [8 You is omitted, 1560.] [9 Hor. De Art. Poet. 356.] [10 Capper, 1560.] [11 Et si diligenter expendamus ejus sententiam, non adversatur transubstantiationi, sed magis ei patrocinatur. Dicit quidem, quod non desinit substantia et natura panis et vini, natura, inquam, extrema: hoc est, proprietates et qualitates cum dimensionibus panis et vini naturalibus, quæ utique eorum sunt natura. Quem sensum et ipse explicare videtur, dum dicit panem et vinum in proprietate suæ naturæ permanere, non in suis substantiis, quas aperte dicit divino Spiritu perficiente in divinam transire substantiam.Ruard. Tapper. Op. Col. Agrip. 1582-3. Art. xiv. Resp. ad Arg. Calv. cont. Trans. Tom. II. p. 211.] [12 Of, 1560.] |