you power to destroy whatever competition exists in those two States to public power. That is the whole kernel in a few words, isn't it? Mr. MARLETT. I would not agree with that conclusion, Mr. Congressman. In fact, I believe this bill is a means for the present investors to recover the investments that they have made in these privately owned companies to redeem their investments, and not to suffer destruction. Mr. DONDERO. That is a refreshing observation.

Senator BONE. May I correct the figures that I gave about the T. V. A. We have been advised by telephone from the T. V. A. office that, instead of the figure of around 900,000 kilowatts installed capacity, the present installed capacity of T. V. A. is 1,165,400 kilowatts. So it is about 200,000 more than the figure that I gave. Senator OVERTON. Did they give the operating revenues? Senator BONE. We can supply that. (The revenue figures are as follows:)

Senator OVERTON. What is necessary now to complete Bonneville? How many generators do you have?

Mr. MARLETT. At Bonneville we now have six generators in operation.

Senator OVERTON. And you are going to have 10 in all?

Mr. MARLETT. We are going to have 10 in all.

Senator OVERTON. Four more?

Mr. MARLETT. Four more.

Senator OVERTON. And you contemplate completing them by what time?

Mr. MARLETT. By the end of 1943; that is, the calendar year 1943. Senator OVERTON. And at Grand Coulee you have how many? Mr. MARLETT. At Grand Coulee we now have three generators in service.

Senator OVERTON. And you contemplate seven?

Mr. MARLETT. We contemplate seven main generators, plus two temporary installations of Shasta generators, or a total of nine by June 30, 1944.

Senator OVERTON. How long will those temporary generators continue to be used?

Mr. MARLETT. The plan is to leave those in just for the war period, the purpose being to make available their capacity for war production at the Grand Coulee Dam, whereas they would not be able to start in operation at Shasta until

Senator OVERTON. Will those two temporary generators be replaced by two permanent generators?

Mr. MARLETT. Yes.

Senator OVERTON. So you will ultimately have nine generators there?

Mr. MARLETT. That is not the ultimate installation. The ultimate installation calls for a total of 18 generators at Grand Coulee.

Senator OVERTON. As against 10 at Bonneville?

Mr. MARLETT. As against 10 at Bonneville.

Mr. ANGELL. The Grand Coulee Dam is very much larger than Bonneville.

Senator OVERTON. That will be so in a number of years. How long will it be before that is done?

Mr. MARLETT. It is difficult to say at this time. We have a total of nine main generators authorized for construction, and we anticipate installation of some three to six more as soon as possible.

Senator OVERTON. That is nine generators. That is seven permanent and two temporary.

Mr. MARLETT. The nine that I referred to were the main generators, the permanent generators.

Senator OVERTON. And you will have those installed by 1944?

Mr. MARLETT. According to the present schedule it will be about 1945 before all of those are in. Of course, those schedules are all subject to allocation orders of the War Production Board, and they are not too definite.

Mr. ANGELL. It depends on the priorities?

Mr. MARLETT. It depends upon the priorities and the material requirements.

Senator OVERTON. When you speak about 1,400,000 kilowatts, that contemplates how many generators at Bonneville?

Mr. MARLETT. The 1,400,000 kilowatts contemplates 10 generators at Bonneville and 7 permanent generators at Grand Cooulee, together with the 2 Shasta units at Grand Cooulee Dam. It is a little in excess of 1,400,000.

Senator OVERTON. About 17 generators in all?

Mr. MARLETT. Nineteen generators.

Senator OVERTON. All right. You may proceed with your main statement.

Mr. MARLETT. My summary yesterday pertained only to the operations of the Government's own plants and transmission systems. Today I would like to introduce the effect of the acquisition of certain properties of existing utility systems and show what the effect of the acquisition of those properties would be upon our financial picture. Senator Overton. Before you begin that:

Senator OVERTON. Before you begin that: Are you in a position to tell us how many distribution systems are owned and operated by the public-utility districts and how many by cooperatives and how many muncipally owned plants there are in Washington and Oregon? Have you a break-down on those?

Mr. MARLETT. I do not have the total figures at the moment. I could give you the number of customers that are buying power from us. But there are some additional municipally owned plants which are not buying power from us.

Senator OVERTON. Do you know how many customers are buying power from private utilities?

Mr. MARLETT. Not offhand. I could give you those figures. I would be glad to supply them in the record.

(Figures requested are as follows:)

Number of customers served by the 8 major electric utility systems in the Pacific Northwest as of Dec. 31, 1941

Number of customers served by public systems in Pacific Northwest as of

Senator OVERTON. You could not give me how many public-utility districts there are that are

Mr. MARLETT. The total number of public-utility districts?
Senator OVERTON. That are actually operating.

Mr. MARLETT. The number of actually operating public-utility

districts?

Senator OVERTON. Yes. Can you give us that?

Mr. MARLETT. There are eight public-utility districts operating and buying power from the Bonneville Administration.

Senator OVERTON. They all buy power from the Bonneville Administration, do they not?

Mr. MARLETT. I think there may be one or two additional publicutility districts that are not buying power from us.

Senator OVERTON. I think that that is clear from the testimony so far. I think it shows that some of them are buying from the Puget Sound Power & Light Co.

Mr. MARLETT. Yes. From the Puget Sound Co.

Senator OVERTON. And the Washington Power & Light?

Mr. MARLETT. The Washington Water Power.

Senator OVERTON. Then you do not know how many there are of those?

Mr. MARLETT. I have the figures here now of the existing public power development in Oregon and Washington.

Of municipally owned power systems there are 14 in Oregon and 20 in Washington. Of public-utility districts, there are 12 in Oregon and 32 in Washington.

Senator OVERTON. Oh, no. They are not all operating.

Mr. MARLETT. They are not all operating.

Senator OVERTON. I want to know those that are operating now.

Mr. MARLETT. All that I have on that are the number of them that are purchasing power from us. I do not have the total figures. Senator OVERTON. Can that information be supplied by anybody here?

Mr. HENDRICKS. Yes. I believe I can supply it for Washington.
Senator OVERTON. Can you do it now?

Mr. HENDRICKS. Among the operating districts I have in mind one district which operates exclusively as a large water system

Senator OVERTON. How large? Just give me the total number. Mr. HENDRICKS. Twelve.

Senator OVERTON. Twelve public districts in Washington?

Mr. HENDRICKS. Yes.

Senator OVERTON. There are how many organized?

Mr. HENDRICKS. There would be 32.

How many are there now?

Senator OVERTON. There would be 32. Mr. HENDRICKS. There are 32. Senator OVERTON. All right. What is the trouble with the other 20?

Mr. HENDRICKS. Those that are in operation either constructed their systems or acquired what they call distressed properties. That is, in those cases the private systems were more willing to dispose of their facilities than the other companies. They were in distressed occupied areas where there were not large systems in operation. Because of this piecemeal acquisition and other factors it has not been possible for the other districts to consummate their acquisitions. The reasons have been brought out here.

Senator OVERTON. Am I to understand that the other 20 are willing and ready to go ahead?

Mr. HENDRICKS. Yes.

That is demonstrated by the fact that a large number of them have condemnation cases filed. And in other instances-I believe almost every district in the State is involved or represented by a negotiating committee in some way. So that they are all exploring means of acquiring properties and getting into operation.

Senator OVERTON. You are not in a position to give us any information about the number of public-utility districts in Oregon, are you?

Mr. HENDRICKS. There are no districts in Oregon.

Mr. MARLETT. There are no districts in Oregon.

Senator OVERTON. What have you in Oregon? Municipal plants? Mr. HENDRICKS. There are public-utility districts in Oregon, but none of them are in operation.

Mr. ANGELL. How many?

Mr. HENDRICKS. Twelve.

Mr. MARLETT. There are 12 districts.

Senator OVERTON. Twelve in Oregon?

Mr. MARLETT. And there are 13 municipalities in operation in Oregon.

Senator OVERTON. Thirteen municipalities?

Mr. MARLETT. Yes.

Mr. DONDERO. Those public utilities are owned by the public or the city?

Mr. MARLETT. By the city.

Senator OVERTON. How many municipalities in Washington?

Mr. MARLETT. There are 20 in operation in Washington. There are 17 in Idaho, if you would like those figures.

Senator OVERTON. Now, how many R. E. A.'s are there in Washington?

Mr. MARLETT. In Washington there are 19 R. E. A.'s. In Oregon there are 15 R. E. A.'s.

Mr. SMITH. I wonder if those are the latest figures. I got a document just the other day which is complete, showing 21 R. E. A.'s in Washington and 17 in Oregon.

Mr. MARLETT. These figures may not be the latest.

Senator BONE. That picture is changing pretty rapidly.

Mr. MARLETT. It is.

Senator OVERTON. You do not have to be exact. Give us the general picture.

Are all of the R. E. A.'s operating?

Mr. MARLETT. I believe that the explanation of the difference, Congressman Smith, is that your figure would have included those not in operation, and the figure that I gave included those in operation only.

Mr. SMITH. Because these are the R. E. A. financial statistics that I have listed.

Mr. MARLETT. Yes; that is correct. The figures that I gave are those actually in operation.

Senator OVERTON. You stated you would follow that by advising us how much current you were supplying to those R. E. A.'s. I do not care particularly for a break-down. If you can give me the current that you are supplying to all the P. U. D.'s, municipalities, and R. E. A.'s at the present time, that will be enough.

Mr. SMITH. I can give you for the P. U. D.'s in my district.

Senator OVERTON. No; I want an over-all picture. Thank you very much.

Mr. SMITH. We have six P. U. D.'s.

Mr. MARLETT. As of June 1, 1942, the Bonneville Administration was supplying a total of 37 public agencies and cooperatives, having an aggregate demand of 22.700 kilowatts.

Senator OVERTON. Then one figure or the other is obviously wrong. Mr. SMITH. It must be. These were furnished by the Bonneville Administration as being the exact amount of kilowatts given to each P. U. D. I have a break-down of it right here.

Mr. MARLETT. Those figures, Congressman, include sales of dump energy over and above the contract demands for firm power which we have agreed to sell.

Senator OVERTON. I wish you would define "firm power."

Mr. MARLETT. Firm power is power that we agree to make available to our customers 100 percent of the time, whenever they need it, 24 hours around the clock. The dump energy is made available only if we have it and our customers want it.

Now, the figures that Congressman Smith had included both firm power as well as the dump-energy sales.

Mr. ANGELL. Dump energy is sold at a much cheaper rate, is it not? Mr. MARLETT. Yes; it is. It is sold on a straight 22 mills energy rate as compared with a $17.50 per kilowatt-year rate on the firm

power.

Now, whether or not dump energy is cheaper would depend upon the extent to which the firm power is used. If the load factor is 100 percent, I think that the firm power would be cheaper. If the load factor was small, the firm power would be a little more expensive.

Senator OVERTON. Can you define dump energy?