port of this unprofitable trade has turned out not sufficient. He was of a different opinion with the last Hon. Gent. as to the security Government were in possession of for their money; it appeared to him by no means good, and if this money now applied for is granted by the House, he would ask, what better security we should get for this loan than we before had? 500,000l. were now owing, and there was but a chance of its being paid for a long time to come. He thought the whole system to be highly improper in lending public money in such a concern. When the West India market was overstocked, we were called upon to make good their losses. This was an indulgence allowed to the West India trade which was allowed to no other; he therefore | thought it ought not to be supported.

Mr. WM. DUNDAS said he wished to submit a few observations in reply to what had fallen from the Hon. Gent. who had just sat down. The Hon. Gent. had argued very much at length upon the abstract question of, whether Government ought, or ought not, to advance the public money to support the mercantile interests of the country. But if the Hon. Gent. had such an objection to Government giving such assistance to the mercantile interest, how happened it that he had not stated his objections upon farmer occasions, when Government had adopted a similar conduct to the merchants of Liverpool, and to other merchants of this country? The fact was, that Parliament granted this aid to the merchants and planters of St. Vincent and Grenada, in 1795, when these islands were desolated by an event which human prudence could neither foresee nor prevent, viz. an insurrection of the blacks. The sum then advanced was 1,400,000l.; of that sum all had been paid off, except about 560,000l. and the interest had been regularly paid the whole time. It had been suggested, that more was paid in bounties on the re-exportation of the produce of those islands, than was received by the customs on their importation. Admitting this for a moment to be true, was there no advantage to the shipping interest of this country in carrying on the trade with those islands? or did the Hon. Gent. mean to say that those islands might as well be in the hands of France as of any other country? If of late the commodities of the West Indies had fallen in price, would it be consistent with generosity, wisdom, or policy, to press for the immediate payment of a debt, so large a part of which had been already discharged, the interest of which was so regularly paid, and for the whole of which the public had such ample security?

Mr. Rose said that the Rt. Hon. Gent. had in a great degree anticipated what he meant to have offered. The Hon. Gent. who spoke last but one, seemed to think that a greater VOL. III.

degree of favour was shewn to the West India trade than to others; he was not aware upon what ground the Hon. Gent. made that assertion. The relief which Parliament had granted to the merchants of Grenada and St. Vincent, they had granted upon other occasions to other persons; and though the Hon. Gent. seemed to think that Government ought not to lend the public money to support the mercantile interest, he begged leave to observe that if it had not been for the assistance afforded by Government some years ago to the manufacturing interest, the consequences might have been such as he was almost afraid to consider. But when the Hon. Gent. talked of considerable favour being shewn to the West India trade, did he consider of what importance that trade was to this country? Did he know that it employed nearly one third of our shipping? did he consider what a nursery it was for our seamen? or did he reflect upon the various advantages this country derived ́ from that trade? At the commencement of the last century, Government had granted relief to some of the West India islands; but the mode in which that relief was granted, appeared to him to be neither so efficacious nor so economical as the relief which had been granted by Government on the present occasion. Under these circumstances, he should certainly give his vote for the Speaker leaving the chair.

The Earl of CARNARVON rose to oppose the proceeding; he delivered his sentiments at some length, which were decidedly against the leading provisions of the bill; his hostility to the measure, he observed, was founded in constitutional principles. The bill, which went to authorize the service of officers not duly qualified, would, when superadded to the other measures adopted by Government. of late years with respect to the militia, grind down that constitutional force to a very standing army. He was aware of the necessity of Great Britain, especially in periods like the present, having a large disposable force: however, at the same time, one constituted on the original principles of the militia was ad mirably well calculated for defensive service. The conduct of Government latterly was such as went to disgust the respectable qualified officers, and would tend greatly to disincline them from serving in the militia. Pursuing this line of observation for some time, and in strong terms, the Noble Earl observed, that *I i

were the bill passed in its present shape, he would never again come forward in the discussion of the subject; so degraded did he consider the militia by such a proposition. At the present moment he urged the propriety of allowing farther time for the consid ration of the subject; and in that view he moved, in the way of an amendment, that the word 'now' be left out of the motion, "that this "bill be now read a second time."

Lord HOBART expressed himself perfectly aware of the importance of the measure, and his inclination to concur in the motion just made, did he entertain any hope of being able to induce the Noble Earl to agree to provisions which he thought wise and necessary. The Noble Secretary then proceeded to defend the provisions of the bill, which he thought, in sound argument and fact, not at all liable to the objections so warmly urged by the Noble Earl; a discretionary power was vested in the Lord Lieutenants, who, in cases of necessity, in the event of their not being able to procure officers possessing landed qualifications as heretofore, were authorized to accept the services of a description of officers, whose admission the Noble Earl so strongly opposed. His Lordship then detailed the prominent provisions of the bill, which offered arrangements, he contended, not liable to the imputed objections. At the same time, he entertained no doubt of the Lord Lieutenants exerting themselves to find out officers fully qualified, and who would be willing to serve. Such officers would naturally be preferred by them. In concluding, his Lordship observed, that the Noble Earl had assigned no sufficient reason for postponing the second reading of the bill.

Lord ROLLE seemed to think that no necessity existed for the present measure, which, in some points of view, he regarded as highly questionable. To ascertain his first point, he thought that an official return of the number, &c. of the militia officers should be laid before the House; and if it should appear that there were not a sufficient number, he should have no objection to the bill's passing.

The Earl of CARNARVON spoke in explanation, in the course of which he repeated his observation, that the conduct of Government of late years relative to the militia, was such as to disgust the officers in general: respecting this he entered into some details, and observed, that, were the present system persisted in, and the militia continued, it would be preferable to lower the number of that part of the national force. The Noble Earl was called to order by the LORD CHANCELLOR; and, after some conversation respecting the question of order, the Duke of MONTROSE rose, and spoke shortly in support of what fell from the Noble Lord on the woolsack. With respect to the

observations of the Noble Earl, he conceived none of them applied against the present measure; they were the arguments adduced last year on an occasion nearly similar; and he begged leave to observe, that the measures respecting the militia, so strongly reprobated by the Noble Earl, were not, properly speaking, attributable to the Minister, but approved by the Legislature after full and repeated discussions. The Noble Duke expressed his regret that men duly qualified were not seen at such a crisis as the present, cheerfully coming forward to serve in that highly useful and constitutional part of the national force. He approved of the militia on other grounds besides those of constitutional principle; it was an excellent defensive system, and being on foot together with the standing army, they were reciprocally useful checks upon each other. Every man who possessed an acre of land in the kingdom was constitutionally bound to defend it; he owed a military service to the crown, on the old principles of the feudal constitution. It was necessary to procure an effective force, and if it could not be done in the way of bounty, stronger measures were necessary. He was adverse to any delay of the bill, the principle of which was then as fully understood as it could be six months hence.

The Earl of RADNOR strongly disapproved some of the provisions of the bill, which he seemed to think would tend still more to disgust the officers alluded to.

The LORD CHANCELLOR, in support of the motion, observed, that the disapprobation expressed by Noble Lords of any particular provisions of the bill, was rather a reason for its going to a committee; beside which, a future opportunity would regularly offer for the discussion of its principle. With respect to the maintenance of order in their Lordships' proceedings, the House would be aware of its necessity; and that it was his duty, to the best of his judgment, to see that it strictly took place, without reference to the situation or feelings of individuals: a necessity for acting in such a manner, he observed, had of late become more necessary than ever.

[Here another conversation took place concerning the question of order.]

Lord CAWDOR delivered his sentiments on the subject at some length. He declared his a tachment to the militia, as a constitutional and effective force; he expatiated on the ser vices it had performed, and on the professional merits and patriotism of its officers. He seemed to disapprove of part of the former conduct of Government respecting the militia, and to express much anxiety relative to the practice of recruiting the standing army from the militia.

5

After a long and general conversation respecting points of order, the question being called for, the same was regularly put from the Woolsack, on which a division took place, when there appeared for the immediate second reading of the bill, 41; against it, 2.-Majority, 39.

On re-entering the House we found the Earl of CARNARVON on his feet, warmly contending against the bill. The question which furnished the Noble Earl an occasion for thus delivering his sentiments, appeared to be for its commitment. His Lordship spoke at some length, and urged a variety of detailed observations against the measure, founded on those principles which he had adverted to as above. He took occasion to combat an idea of the Noble and Learned Lord's, namely, that because only some of the provisions of a bill were objected to, it should be suffered to go to a committee; such a mode of reasoning, he contended, may be urged in behalf of any measure, however worthy of censure or disapprobation.

[CLERGY NON-RESIDENCE.]-The House then, pursuant to the order of the day, resolved itself into a committee on the clergy residence bill, Lord Walsingham in the chair.

When that clause was come to which fixed the termination of the suspension to the 8th of July,

The BISHOP of ST. ASAPH rose, and delivered his sentiments upon the subject of which the bill before the committee formed a part, at considerable length. He repeated many of his observations of last night, adverted to the indiscriminate operation of part of the statute of Henry VIII. and described the progress of the various suspending bills, which | were passed within the three last years. He expressed his disapprobation of those measures, and gave his opinion that if they were not resorted to, that statute alluded to would ere now have been properly amended. He would go farther; he thought that if the present bill was assented to, they should hear no more of the amending bill till next spring, and so on. On these grounds it was, he should in the present instance propose to shorten the term of the suspension. With respect to the statute of Henry VIII. of which so much had been said, and also on the effects of the proposed plans for amending it, he thought the penalties of that act should be mitigated. He was fully aware of the present and future contingent situation of curates: if residence were fully enforced, many of them naturally would be ousted; but such a consequence could by ro means generally follow. In illustration of this position, the Rev. Prelate entered into a detailed view of the situation of curates in geneTal, particularly those in the country. Le

observed a resident curate was, in many instances, as great a rara avis as a resident clergyman; this in a great degree proceeded from many curates undertaking the duty of different parishes. The Rev. Prelate also adverted, and with great effect, to the unwillingness which especially young clergymen manifested to undertake the duty of country parishes; they preferred the duty of populous or market towns, and, above all, that of the metropolis, where many, conceiving themselves men of abilities and eloquence, were fond of exhibiting in the pulpits. Persons of this description generally employed curates for the country duty, who, in the event of an enforcement of residence, would probably be ousted: but at the same time, there were numerous instances where, in cases of small livings, the incumbents held also valuable curacies, of which, however, in the above event, were they to be deprived, they would obviously be not left destitute; and were one description of cases set against the other, those of real hardship would be found not so numerous as was generally imagined. Drawing towards a conclusion, the Rev. Prelate repeated his opinion, that, were the bill before the committee passed in its present shape, no more would be heard of the general amending bill until the next session, &c. Under which conviction, he would move, "That instead of the 8th of July, the "13th of May be inserted."

The LORD CHANCELLOR observed, that the proceeding adverted to by the Rt. Rev. Prelate, was a parliamentary acknowledgment that the statute of Henry VIII. wanted revision. With respect to the question regularly before the committee, he observed, that there was no difference of opinion as to the expediency of continuing the suspension; but as to the interval of time, the Learned Prelate seemed to go upon an idea, that there existed an intention somewhere, to bring forward a general bill, which might pass before a certain period. On this head, he would say, it were better not to cramp such an intention by too limited a period, which might prevent exertion from having its full scope. For his own part, in this view of the case, he should vote for the longer term, because it would naturally afford a better chance of the bill alluded to being brought forward; at the same time he seemed averse to a further suspension.

The BISHOP of DURHAM, in delivering his sentiments, took occasion to advert to the very great fitness of the learned and respectable Member of the other House, who had undertaken the task of the bill alluded to, to do ample justice to the subject. But his Lordship begged leave to question the propriety of seeming to call upon that Gentleman, when his present indispos tion was con sidered. He had the highest possible opinion *།i ཐ