now move the resolutions; but if any Gentlemen wished for further time to consider the subject, the resolutions might be moved pro forma at present, and the discussion postponed to another day. He then moved the first resolution.

into a war, he was sure there was no part of our empire better prepared to meet the alternative of war, than the India Company. They had now finished a war of ten years continuance; they had not only to contend against the European war, but they also had to contend with the powers of India. In fact, it might be said that they had been constantly at Mr. JOHNSTONE said, he should not trou war since the first operations of Lord Corn- ble the House many minutes; he had to obwallis. All this they had done with unim- serve, that the Indian debt had greatly inpaired means, with undiminished resources. creased within a short time: on looking over They had now an empire double in extent and the papers, he found that the Company were in revenue; and although they had added ten 700,000l. worse at this period than they were millions to their debt, their means had in- a few years back. He said, the money owing creased in a corresponding ratio. If this was to them was to be considered as bad debts, their situation in a period of war, what would which in all probability they never would rehave been their condition if in the enjoyment ceive. Some of the accounts contain very of peace? But their revenue had not only kept accurate statements, but many others of the up in the manner he had stated, they had also accounts are very incorrect; and he would provided against great and heavy establish- venture to say, that when the Company paid ments; they had made arrangements for more all their legal debts, they would find a defi comfortable provision for the officers and ciency of many thousands. The extraorditroops on their establishment; they had also nary revenue arose from the Company having made an establishment for the better admi- such a desire for territorial possessions, which nistration of justice; and all this had made an involved the Company in additional and unneincrease in their expenditure of near one mil- cessary expense. The customs also came un lion a year, a sum almost equal to the amount der his observation, which he very much disof the interest of their debt. This statement approved of, as inimical to the prosperity of must, he was sure, be satisfactory to the public, that country: he said, every article that was and must shew that there was every probability sold in India bore a heavy tax; the same spe of this country deriving a great and essential cies of tax was known in Spain, which had in support from India, and that the Company some measure reduced the importance of the would have the means, at no remote period, trade of that nation; but which tax Lord of paying to the public a sum of half a mil- Cornwallis (whose policy was sound and brillion a year, and of reinforcing the sinking liant) had repealed in India, from a thorough fund with no less than one million and a half conviction of its ill effects to that country. a year. This completely justified the state- The successive estimates of the state of that ment of his Noble Friend, who had preceded country prove that the expenditure has gone him in the office he now held, and whose pre- much farther than was expected. He stated dictions would have been sooner verified if it that the trade of China had been more prohad not been for the war in which this coun- fitable to the country, than the trade of any try was engaged. In the event of another other part of India. The Court of Directors war this country must, for a time, give up the had told the public, that the Indian debt had annual half million which the Company was increased to 1,200,000l. which arose from their to pay; but still the Company would have extraordinary disbursements, but which has one million a year applicable to the reduction been found to turn out a deficiency of of its debt, which, even upon the least fa- 1,800,000/. He observed, that his Lordship vourable calculation, must discharge it in had told us with great pleasure, that we have twelve years. Therefore, in whatever view increased the Indian territories, by which we the subject was considered, whether in the al-had received many advantages; but he was ternative of peace or war, there was no ground for alarm, but the most solid and well-grounded prospect of prosperity. He had thought it his duty to submit these considerations to the committee as subjects which they ought to understand; and if he himself understood the subject, the prospect was founded upon the most solid basis. If the peace continued, the public would next year obtain their participation of the Company's surplus revenue, and the Company would have 2,000,000l. applicable to the reduction of its debt. If war unfortunately took place, this country must forego for a time the half million a year, but the Company would still have one million a year for the liquidation of its debt. He should

VOL. III.

sure that we had reduced the consequence of the country. He said, that we had com. mitted a breach of faith in India, and that we had been guilty of as much injustice in India, as the French had been in Europe. He concluded by saying, that the estimates presented to the House were far from accurate, and not to be depended upon.

Lord CASTLEREAGH said, he did not wish to enter into a discussion on the subject tonight, nor did he wish the vote of the House till they had minutely examined the estimates laid before them; yet he could not help say ing that the Learned Gent. had misconceived many parts of the estimates. His Lordship. * Dd

then entered into a long explanation, which | object to this country to preserve it in its prewas only a recapitulation of his former state- sent course, instead of suffering it to run into ment, and concluded by saying, that when another channel. He thought it necessary the resolutions were read he should be happy also to do away false impressions, which to hear any Gentleman address the committee might be made by unfounded assertions. on the question; and he should also be happy to give every explanation that could possibly be wished for.

Mr. FRANCIS objected to the statement of the Noble Lord who brought this subject forward that night, because the whole of it proThe CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, ceeded on estimates which contained many he should not have said a word on the present things that might or might not be made subject, had it not been for an expression made good; and also some false documents. He use of by the Hon. Gent. who had just spoken. looked upon all estimates as no better than He had charged our conduct in India as a breach promises; and although he had no claim to of good faith. The Hon. Gent. must allow infallibility, yet he possessed some experience him to complain of this statement, and of the upon this subject; but he should speak this time in which it was made-for it was a time night as a mere Member of Parliament, as if when the subject to which the assertion re- he had never been in India. Now these estiferred could not be examined, and when mates were no better than promises, and he therefore no correct opinion could be formed knew very well that promises had been held by an individual upon the subject; it was out from year to year; but the result was, therefore to him a matter of regret that this that the affairs of the Company were always assertion had been made: therefore he would rather worse afterwards than when the proask of the House, and he was confident that mises were made. Nothing could be more he should not ask in vain, that they would distinct than that, on the renewal of the charkeep their minds clear upon the matter, and ter, 500,000l. a year was to have been paid free of bias, until they should have an oppor- by the Company to the public, upon which, tunity of looking into all the circumstances of however, no more had ever been actually reit, and this he was aware the House would do ceived than the fruits of one year. The Nowithout any suggestion from him; but he ble Person who had the arrangement of these stated this merely by way of caution to some affairs formerly under his care (Lord Viscount individuals, because he knew that unfavour- Melville) had considered the affairs of India able impressions might be made, when bold as if there had been no war to interfere in the though groundless assertions were advanced, arrangement; and now the Noble Lord could affecting the characters of meritorious indivi- not make the difference he proposed in his duals, who had been zealously engaged in the statement as between war and peace, without service of their country. It was too much deserting the system of his noble predecessor. that they should be made to suffer in their The Noble Lord had said, that India would character from a broad unfounded assertion; never be a drain on this country, but might it was painful to suppose that they might be afford it material support, in which he adopted affected in this manner, and that they should, the language of his noble predecessor; but it for a time even, be deprived of that which was not to be forgotten, that was a promise was a considerable part of their reward, which had been held out for the last twenty namely, the approbation of their country; years, but which had never yet been kept. the whole of their conduct therefore ought to So much of promises, and estimates, which be left untouched, until they had an oppor- were no better than promises. He then protunity to explain it themselves, or by those ceeded to take a view of the accounts which who might derive information from them when had been laid before the House on the part of they returned, when he had no doubt their the India Company, and contended they were conduct would do them honour: for these extremely defective, and that the whole statereasons he begged leave to object to the ex-ment of to-night was fallacious, and therefore pression of the Hon. Gent, which stated that Great Britain was stigmatized with a breach of faith in India. He begged pardon of the committee for having called its attention aside upon this occasion for a moment, but it appeared to him to be a debt of justice to take care that no injurious impression should be made on the characters of gallant inen, who had so bravely acted in the service of their country.

Sir HUGH INGLIS supported the conduct of the East India Company. He gave an account of the trade, public and private, for the last four years, and maintained that it was a great

not to be relied on: he charged the accounts with having been fabricated for the purpose of imposing on the House and the public by making a false balance. He contended, that the capital stock of the East India Company ought to have been stated, which it was not. It was stated in the year 1793, and amounted to no less than 7,807,000l.; there was also a claim stated by the Company, amounting to 3,000,000l. which the Noble Lord himself said was of a nature that made it doubtful whether it would be allowed or not; so that this made the real state of the accounts of the Company 10,000,000l. more than it appeared on the face of the present statement. He con

tended, that upon a fair statement of the accounts of the India Company, instead of a -balance in their favour, it would be against them. He complained of these statements as contrivances to give to the House and the public a false view of the affairs of the East India Company, and that made him have recourse to his original proposition, that upon the subject of the East India Company's affairs, promises had been held out from year to year, which had never been realized.

ments, the Company will have one million a year, even in case of war, applicable to the reduction of their debts; and if there was another such company in this world, he should be glad to be informed where to find it.

Mr. FRANCIS persisted in his former statement, and maintained that he was borne out by the accounts now upon the table.

Mr. WILLIAM DUNDAS observed, that the manner in which his Noble Friend had opened Lord CASTLEREAGH admitted, that it was this subject was so clear, that there was but fair that the accounts of the affairs of the East little to go over in the accounts again; but India Company should be examined; but the something stated by the Hon. Member who committee would recollect, that what was spoke last called for an answer, and that now before it was a comparison of the affairs which he should give should be very short. of the Company at different periods, chiefly The Hon. Gent. said, that the account before with a view of considering whether the war the committee was false, inasmuch as it did had injured their affairs or not, and comparing not contain the capital stock of the Company. all the debts of the Company and their assets By this one would think there was some mystogether. The Hon. Gent. had said that these tery about the matter, that there was someaccounts were made up with a view of giving thing unknown about it; but instead of that, incorrect information; and this, he said, was it was a matter of so perfect notoriety, that done by leaving out of the account the whole one of the clerks of the India House would of the capital of the Company, which he laugh at any body that made a question upon stated to be above seven millions. There it. Imposition was therefore impossible in was no force in this objection; there could be this case. The Hon. Gent. had said that he no imposition upon any body by this, because was not infallible; he was glad of that assu it was known by every body what the amount rance from himself, otherwise he could not of that capital was; and leaving out of the have been bold enough to offer any answer to account that which was perfectly notorious, him. For want of that absolute infallibility could answer no purpose whatever of impo- to which the Hon. Member approached, he sition and therefore, when the Hon. Gent. had, by the merest accident, omitted to take called this a false account, for the purpose of notice of one line which was at the head of imposing upon the public, he was carrying the this account, and in the very title of it: for it argument further than, upon reflection, he was stated to be an account of the affairs of would be inclined to do. He took off from the East India Company, "exclusive of their the account the whole of the note of the capital stock." And this was the account charge made as being due to the India Com- that was framed for the purpose of deceiving pany from Government. Whether it was to the public, by omitting that which they profall on Government or on the Company, was fessed to omit; but this was the observation a point hereafter to be determined; but it of an Hon. Gent. who was not infallible. As could only be stated in the way it had been. to what had been said upon the conduct of As to the result of the statement, the Hon. the Noble Lord (Lord Melville) who preceded Gent. might make it for himself. It would his Noble Friend in this department, Mr. stand thus debts in Europe, including the Dundas said that he had stood some time in capital which the Hon. Gent. alluded to, the light of a parent to him, that any thing amounted to 2,600,000/; debts in India, bear- he could say of him must of course be accoming interest, 16,000,000l.; assets in Europe panied by partiality, as well as veneration. were 17,000,000l.; in India, 11,000,000l.; That Noble Person stood upon his character making in' all 28,000,000l. In this account in that House, and before the public, by whom there was no dead stock stated, though that he was well known, and he hoped esteemed. was of great value; nor was this all the pro- But the Hon. Gent. had said that that Noble perty of the Company, for it must be remem- Person had, for the last twenty years, held out bered, that they had great territorial posses- promises which had not been kept on the af:sions in India, besides what they derived un- fairs of the East India Company; that he had der the sweeping clause of their charter; and made no difference in his comparative statetherefore there was a vast mass of property in ments between a time of peace and a time of the Company, which was not brought to the war. In the first place, for twenty years he credit side of this account; consequently the would not have made this comparative esti -committee would clearly see, that this was mate as between peace and war at all, because - not an account laid before them for the pur- for much of that time there was no war, nor pose of imposing a false balance in favour of did this comparative estimate commence until the Company. The truth of the matter was the year 1793, which was the period of the this: that after discharging all their engage-renewal of the charter of the Company: but

since that period, the Noble Lord alluded to had uniformly made a difference between the estimate in time of peace and that of war, and that the 500,000l. a year from the Company to the public could never be thought of until a time of peace; and yet the Hon. Gent. had roundly said that that Noble Lord had made no difference between peace and war in the statement of the affairs of the East India Company; but then this came from a Gentleman who was not quite infallible.

they added to their capital or not, they would in time of war, have one million, in time of peace two millions, applicable to the reduction of their debt annually, after providing for all their engagements.

Mr. METCALFE proceeded to answer the observations of Mr. Francis: he said they were unfounded, and he defied that Hon. Member to shew wherein the statement now upon the table was false. He had abused all the India Company; he had said they had fabricated Sir F. BARING observed, that the Noble accounts, for the purpose of deceiving the Lord who had brought forward this important public with a false balance: he would tell that business had speculated upon some topics in Hon. Member that he had asserted this incorwhich he could not follow him; but the No-rectly; and he would tell him further, that ble Lord had an ardent mind, and took upon every Member of the Court of Directors of himself a burden which another had staggered the India Company was as incapable as he was under for many years. The Noble Lord of making out a false account for the public, who had so long had the superintendence of or of imposing on any body. He denied this the affairs of the Company, had some time charge, and he told that Hon. Gent. that he since published something of a political testa- could not prove it. He would also ask whe ment: he had stated that the Company, by ther it was likely that this was a fabricated acgreat exertions in time of peace, might pay count on the part of the Company? Had it off one million annually. The Company had been fabricated, they would have made it in entertained an idea of doing this in a more their own favour; whereas this was against vigorous manner, and instead of paying off themselves, and in favour of the public. He one million, to pay two millions annually, and wished Gentlemen to take some care of what not to create one penny additional stock. The they said: that Hon. Gent. best knew why he Noble Lord's predecessor, in his calculation made this attack on the Directors of the East for the thirteen years, never alluded to the India Company; but this he knew, it was no 500,000l. participation of the public, which light matter to charge them with fabricating the Noble Lord this night promised to the false accounts for purposes of deception. The public. He believed, that in a few years the Hon. Bart. who had lately spoken had differed public would have the gratification of seeing in some points from the Noble Lord who had that paid, provided peace continued. His brought this subject forward; but then he had principal reason for rising was, to take notice too much candour and liberality to charge the of what the Noble Lord said respecting the accounts as being false to deceive any body. increase of capital stock, or debt. That was The truth of the matter was, that the real a matter which the Court of Directors would situation of the affairs of the Company had receive with great reluctance; and by the at- undergone great alteration both at home and tention which the Noble Lord paid to the af- abroad. Now the reverse was the case; for fairs of the East India Company, he would abroad they had debts, and here they were observe, that great progress was made by them rich. For the purpose of military operations, in the payment of their debts in India, with- they were obliged to borrow money on very out raising stock; but the mode proposed disadvantageous terms, and they had increased would be taking money away from commer- their bonded debt, which, in point of sound cial purposes, and applying it to the pay- policy, ought never to have reached its prement of political debts. The capital already sent state; but the whole account was before in the service of the East India Company was the committee, and it was very hard to have fully adequate to the payment of their debts. it said that they fabricated any accounts: this was an assertion which he did not expect to hear from any Hon. Gent. of that House. Having passed over the accounts of the Com. pany, he proceeded to take notice of the capital of 7,780,000l. which the Hon. Gent. had said was wilfully left out of the account: the fact was, that by an act of the Legislature itself this was guarantied to the Company at twelve millions, and therefore it would be wrong to state it in the account. There was here something which was the reverse of de ception, for being guarantied to the Compay at twelve millions, it was more in favour of the Company than the Hon. Gent. had stated, by the difference between that

Lord CASTLEREAGH said, he did not mean to express any opinion how far it would be proper for the East India Company to raise funds, by adding to the capital of the Company's debt. He had stated, that no more than two millions would be wanted, and that in the worst point of view there would be three millions applicable to the purposes of their commerce. He would not now enter into the question of whether it was expedient to refer to these resources for the payment of their debts; perhaps they might raise their credit by redeemable securities in Europe. The Company had no difficulty; for whether

proposition on the subject, it could not be expected that he should have to trouble their Lordships with any detail thereon, the more especially as the bill was now before a committee of the whole House, in which stage of it no efficient alteration could be proposed. With respect to the subject, however, he would then state generally, that he retained those opinions upon which he had formerly avowed, that, with a reference to the present transaction in particular, he was of opinion the illustrious personage who was the object of it was as ill used as any man could be. The bill before the committee would be pro

sum and 7,800,000l. There was now a clear balance in favour of the Company, in comparison of the year 1793, of 2,200,000l. and upwards. He then proceeded to observe on the conduct of the Noble predecessor of the Noble Lord who brought this business forward (Lord Melville), whose whole conduct he approved highly, it being distinguished by the wisdom of an able and upright statesman. The Noble Lord now in the same department was treading in the steps of his most able predecessor, and, from the diligent application of his excellent talents, he might become his equal; more perhaps was unattainable. But there was much yet to be done inductive of those effects which would disapthe subject of Indian politics; and if this pleasing prospect held out, the Company | would be relieved, and the public have a participation of 500,000l. a year besides. Having said thus much on the general question before the committee, he must beg permission to say a few words on behalf of the proprietor of India stock, at whose risk India had been under great agitation, and quartered and divided, but yet preserved to the British empire. The proprietor had never received more than five per cent. for his capital, a sum with which no shopkeeper in London would be satisfied. He submitted whether or not it would not be wise to take the subject of India stock into consideration, and allow the holder eleven per cent. which he was convinced would be of ultimate advantage to the public. India never could be a drain upon this country, but might assist it abundantly. The granting of this eleven per cent. would raise the price of stock immediately. Having stated some advantages from this plan, he concluded with observing that India, under wise directions, might produce more advantage to this country, than it derived from all its other colonies together.

point hopes held out, and frustrate expectations formed. Without adverting to the personal feelings of his R. H. upon such an occasion, it was now, he said, known that the public expectation of seeing him resume that state and splendour with which it was agreed on all hands the Heir Apparent to the Crown should be invested, would be entirely disappointed. He thought the question of the arrears of the dutchy of Cornwall should be legally decided; the general subject would then come before Parliament in a clearer point of view, and they would be the better able to judge what course to take. The bill before the committee would, he contended, not afford that relief to his R. H. which it professed: that illustrious personage would be left by it, at least for some time to come, in that degraded, nay, almost ignominious situation, in which for a considerable time he would be. placed. His R. H. it appeared, was so circumstanced with respect to claims upon him, that the bill could not have even its proposed effect for at least one year and a half. Ministers had much better have waited until the period of the liquidation of those claims, when they could have effectually come forward; but though, notwithstanding he felt himself called upon to offer these general observations, yet his principal motive for troubling their Lordships was, to explain an expression which he made use of yesterday, which then seemed to make some impression upon a Noble Earl, and which appeared to be since, in some degree, misapprehended. Recurring again to the subject of his former animadversions, the Noble Earl observed, that the measure under the consideration of the committee was, like all the other measures of the present Administration, weak, inefficient, futile; in fact, a half-measure, inefficacious as to its object, and falling short of its avowed end. He then adverted to his language of yesterday: he had, he observed, expressed his opinion that the country was in a perilous state; and he would repeat, that the country, under all its present circumstances, was perilThe Earl of CARLISLE rose and observed, ously situated: this idea, however, was prothat after his declaration of yesterday, re-visional. We were to be regarded as on the specting his intention not, under the present eve of experiencing an invasion; at least, little Arcumstances, to bring forward any distinct less than such a state of things was to be in

The question was then put and carried, and all the resolutions were voted pro forma. The House being resumed, the Report was received immediately.-Ordered to be taken into further consideration on that day sennight, and that the resolutions be printed.

HOUSE OF LORDS.

Tuesday, March 15. (See Minutes, p. 427.) [PRINCE OF WALES'S ANNUITY.]-The order being read for the committee on the Prince of Wales's annuity bill, the House accordingly resolved into the same, Lord Walsingham in the Chair.

On the first clause being read, and the question put,