Mr. O'NEAL. Senator, let me ask you a question. Senator GORE. Just a minute. They borrowed the money from the United States to pay us what they owed us. You can not liquidate debts, in the long run, with new debts. They borrowed the money from the United States to buy our stuff from us, and they kept it up as long as we loaned it. If you loan them this money, they will buy some more. It is a false sort of prosperity, and in the end will bring you to grief. Mr. O'NEAL. Let me ask you a question, my good friend. Mr. O'NEAL. When they were borrowing our money, we very rapidly stepped up to the richest Nation in the world, didn't we? Senator GORE. We thought so. Mr. O'NEAL. Wait a minute. We thought so. Are we not the richest Nation in the world to-day? Senator GORE. Oh, yes. Nature was generous to this country, and we have done our part, too. I will say that. Mr. O'NEAL. Now, then, you are not willing to do that, and you helped to do that for industry. Can you not spare a little shirttail full, a few millions, for the farmer, whom you are supposed to represent? Senator GORE. Yes; but I want to help the farmer, and not hurt him. I do not want to give him poison, instead of medicine. That is what this is. Mr. O'NEAL. Senator, he will take almost anything right now. He is flat. Senator GORE. He has had dope. He has had opiates. He has been led by people to look to Congress to solve his problems, instead of depending on himself. The farther he has followed the will-o'-the-wisp, the farther he has gotten into the mire. Mr. O'NEAL. Senator, you voted for the Reconstruction Finance bill, did you not? Senator GORE. No; I did not. Mr. O'NEAL. You did not? Mr. O'NEAL. I see. It is a measure of Congress to help other groups, is it not? Senator GORE. That is what they said. Mr. O'NEAL. Primarily, isn't it? Senator GORE. Oh, yes. It was passed for that purpose, I assume. Mr. O'NEAL. We got the widow's mite, did we not-10 per cent of whatever was loaned to the other fellow? Senator GORE. The appropriation carried $125,000,000, or such a matter. Mr. O'NEAL. Senator, you will at least agree to this, that you have to do something definitely for the farmer. If you have done something definitely for the other groups, I am sure you will not stand in the way of putting out a few millions to help the farmer. Senator GORE. I want to change the economic condition, and to counteract the causes that have brought this situation about. I am not willing to aggravate those causes or to repeat them. Mr. O'NEAL. Senator when you go back to Oklahoma, you will find they have gone a little beyond aggravation. 125985-32- -6 Senator GORE. You do not have to tell me anything about Oklahoma, Mr. O'Neal. Mr. O'NEAL. In other words, the farmers Senator GORE. I am in touch with Oklahoma. Mr. O'NEAL. And I presume you get scores of letters telling you about conditions? Senator GORE. Yes. They are most distressing. Mr. O'NEAL. I am sure you will do something to help them. The CHAIRMAN. The next witness is Mr. Patton, from the Department of Commerce. He is here at the suggestion of the department, I understand, to represent their views on some particular part of this bill. STATEMENT OF R. S. PATTON, DIRECTOR COAST AND GEODETIC SURVEY, DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE Mr. PATTON. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, my name is R. S. Patton. I am director of the Coast and Geodetic Survey. In his speech introducing this bill in the Senate, Senator Wagner closed by inviting the Federal departments to submit suggestions for improving the bill. According to that invitation, and with the approval of the Secretary of Commerce, I have come here this afternoon to suggest that, if it be found necessary to make an appropriation for direct expenditure on public works, a small part of that amount be allocated to the Coast and Geodetic Survey. The Coast and Geodetic Survey is engaged in certain continuing programs of engineering work, which I will not take the time to discuss. Senator GORE. Would that give employment to any additional labor? Mr. PATTON. Yes, sir; 75 per cent of our normal appropriation is paid directly in salaries and wages. Senator GORE. How many new people do you figure you could take on? Mr. PATTON. We are a small bureau, but we have worked out a program whereby an increase of one and a quarter million over the amount proposed for 1933 will take care of from 900 to 1,000 people. In other words, we can spend over 70 per cent directly for low-salaried labor, the type of man who is employed as a hand on a surveying party, and that sort of thing. To be brief, here are some of the advantages that would result from including the Coast and Geodetic Survey. As I say, approximately 70 per cent of the money you would give us would be paid out directly to labor. Senator WAGNER. I am very glad to hear you say that, in view of some of the testimony to-day. Mr. PATTON. It is surveying work. You realize what a large percentage goes to labor in work of that kind. This labor would be employed along both coasts, and in practically all the States in the interior. As a matter of fact, I have a program here that involves work in 45 of the 48 States. In the third place, the work is urgently needed now. Within the past 10 days, two States have offered to contribute of their own funds, in order that work which has threatened with being stopped as a result of the cut in the regular appropriations might be carried on in those States. The States of California is one, and the State of New Jersey is another. Each wants engineering work that we are doing. The State of North Carolina has contributed State funds to carry on a purely Federal project, in order that the work might be completed promptly, because it is of value to them in their highway work. Now we are threatened with having to stop that work, although we entered into an agreement with them and accepted their money. Here is the State of Florida, which has just completed dredging a port, Port Everglades. They need a chart of that port, in order to bring commerce in there. We are threatened with inability to get out that chart. This appropriation would save that situation. In California, they are just completing dredging a ship channel up to Stockton, on the San Joaquin River. They are urging that that chart be gotten out, in order that foreign shipping may come into that port. We are threatened with inability to do that work. This appropriation would save that situation. There are other advantages. These expenditures that we would make do not involve any additional subsequent expenditures for maintenance or depreciation. There are no public buildings to maintain and operate. There are no dredged channels to be periodically redredged. There are no highways to be repaired, and, in time, rebuilt. When this expenditure of ours is once made, it begins to draw a dividend for the country, and there is no subsequent expenditure to maintain it. Senator FLETCHER. When you make your surveys and finish them, and finish your charts, the work is done? Mr. PATTON. The work is done. We are ready to start within a month after we get the money. This program can be in full swing within a month after we get the money. There are no specifications to be written, no contracts to be made, no lands to be purchasednothing of that sort to delay the money getting into the pockets of the people who need it. Senator FLETCHER. You are not included in this bill at all, under the head of public works? Mr. PATTON. No, sir; we are not included in this bill under the head of public works. Senator WAGNER. How much do you ask for? Mr. PATTON. We are a small bureau, Senator, but we could use $1,250,000 in addition to the 1933 appropriation that is carried in the Senate bill. Senator FLETCHER. How much is that? Mr. PATTON. $2,399,813. Senator WAGNER. Have you a memorandum of your program? Mr. PATTON. I wrote a letter to Senator Norbeck. Senator WAGNER. Is that a copy of it [indicating]? Mr. PATTON. Yes. Senator WAGNER. You can leave it? Mr. PATTON. Yes, indeed. Senator WAGNER. This outlines the program? Mr. PATTON. Yes. Senator FLETCHER. Can you not put it in the record? Senator FLETCHER. But he has not gone into details. Mr. PATTON. May I add one thing? This can very readily be accomplished in this bill by a minor amendment to paragraph 6 of section 4 (a), I think it is the section which deals with the aeronautics branch and the Bureau of Lighthouses of the Department of Commerce, amending that section. Senator WAGNER. On what page of the bill? Mr. PATTON. On page 10 of the bill, the paragraph numbered 6. Strike out the "and" in the second line; in the fourth line, after the words "Lighthouse Service," add "and for the engineering work of the Coast and Geodetic Survey," and change the amount from $7,500,000 to $8,750,000. Senator FLETCHER. You say that would give employment to how many additional men? Mr. PATTON. That will give employment to from 900 to 1,000 men-not full year employment, but an average of about eight months apiece. Senator WAGNER. The virtue is that they can be put to work within a month? Mr. PATTON. They can be put to work promptly. Senator BARBOUR. You know just exactly what there is for them to do? Mr. PATTON. Yes. We have a program. Senator FLETCHER. Can you leave a copy of your letter for the record? Mr. PATTON. The original went to Senator Norbeck. I will be glad to leave that copy with you. Senator WAGNER. We want to get this in the record in some way. You have not another copy? Mr. PATTON. No. That is the only copy I have. If you want that for the record, let me mail you another copy. Senator WAGNER. That will be fine. Senator BARBOUR. Mr. Chairman, I would like to say for the benefit of the committee, that it is not my intention to go into any discussion of my bill at this time. The Secretary of the Treasury is going to give a review from his point of view of the features of my bill shortly, either in writing or in person, and I think it would save time for the committee, and be more helpful to Senator Wagner, if I refrained from any general discussion until we have the benefit of those reactions. Senator WAGNER. I think you are right. Senator FLETCHER. If it is submitted in writing, we will have it available. (Mr. Patton submitted the following copy of a letter as requested by Senator Wagner:) Hon. PETER NORBECK, DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE, Chairman Committee on Banking and Currency, United States Senate, Washington, D. C. MY DEAR SENATOR NORBECK: In his speech in explanation of the public works bill for the relied of unemployment, Senator Wagner urged that "the several deapartments of the Government come forward with constructive suggestions which will be of assistance in perfecting the bill." In the absence of the Secretary of Commerce, but with his approval, I suggest that of the total sum contemplated in that bill, $1,250,000 be made available to the Coast and Geodetic Survey. The Coast and Geodetic Survey is engaged on the gradual performance of certain continuing programs of engineering field work which have two principal purposes: (a) Safeguarding lives and property at sea and the orderly and economical movement of maritime commerce, and (b) Reducing the cost and assuring accuracy of many diverse engineering projects, including the topographic map of the United States, highway construction, irrigation and reclamation, flood control, maintenance and building railroads, power and pipe-line extensions. There is scarcely an extensive engineering enterprise throughout the United States to which this part of our work is not an important prequisite. In the orderly execution of these programs the survey is spending $3,023,933 during 1932. About 75 per cent of this sum is paid out directly in salaries and wages. For 1933 a reduction of $624,120 is imminent. This reduction means that field work must be discontinued, ships tied up, large volumes of surveying equipment stored here and there throughout the country, and labor discharged. The great burden of the reduction falls on people least able to bear it; the crews of our ships and the hands on our shore parties; men drawing generally from $80 to $125 per month. Hundreds of them throughout the United States will be deprived of work. These reductions are freezing a large capacity to aid unemployment. I am now suggesting that that capacity be thawed out and put to work. We will have reserve capacity in storage adequate to handle any increase up to about $1,250,000 above the proposed 1933 appropriation of $2,399,813. The following factors pertinent to such an increase deserve careful consideration: Seventy to eighty per cent of the money would be paid out to low-salaried labor. The money could be made to give work to approximately a thousand persons. This labor would be employed along both coasts and in half or more of the interior States. The work is urgently needed now. Within the past 10 days two States have offered to contribute funds in order that the proposed reduction need not compel discontinuances of certain work within their areas. The expenditures which would be made do not involve additional subsequent expenditures for operation or maintenance of results. There are no public buildings to be maintained, navigable channels to be periodically redredged, or roads to be kept in repair and after a few years rebuilt. There are no specifications to be written, contracts made, lands purchased, or other sources of delay. The program can be in full swing within a month or less after the money becomes available. The work accomplished will be in the nature of a permanent national investment and not merely a temporary expedient to relieve unemployment. It will prevent jeopardy to lives and property at sea which must otherwise result from the reductions now pending. It will make it possible to reduce the cost of Federal, State, and local engineering projects hereafter undertaken in every State in which our work is done. I think that the foregoing facts have escaped notice solely because the Coast and Geodetic Survey is a small service which does not loom up prominently in the huge and complex Federal structure. Our contribution to the present emergency must be correspondingly limited in size. Within that limit, however, I know of no Federal activity in which a larger percentage of the money spent |