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12. The prelats were not chosen by the church; presbyters are. 13. The prelates did presume to make lawes binding the conscience, euen in things indiferent; and did persecute, imprison, fine, depose, excommunicate men for certaine rites & ceremonies acknowledged by themselues to be indifferent (seting the will and authority of the law-makers asside). This the Presbiteriall gouerment abhoreth, saith he.

14. The prelats did excomunicate for monie-maters, for trifles, wh the Presbiteriall gouerment condemneth.

15. The prelates did not alow men to examene by the judgmente of Christian & priuate discretion, their decrees & canons, so as to search the scriptures and looke at the warrents, but would needs haue men thinke it enough to know the things to be comanded by them that are in place and power; but Presbyterall gourt: (saith he) doth not lord it ouer mens consciences, but admiteth & comendeth the searching of the scriptures, whether these things it holds forth be not so; and doth not presse mens consciences with sic volo, sic jubeo, but desire they may doe in faith what they doe.

16. The prelates held vp pluralities, non-residences, &c., which the Presbyteriall gouer doth not.

17. As many of the prelates did them selues neclect to preach the gospell, so they kepte vp in diuerse places a reading-non-preaching ministrie, which the Presbyteriall gouerment suffereth not.

18. They opened the dore of the ministrie to diuerse scandalous arminianized and popishly affected men, and locked the dore vpon many worthy to be admited. The Presbyteriall gouerment, (saith he) herein is as contrary to theirs, as theirs was to right.

19. Their officiall-courts, comissaries, &c, did serue them selues as heires to the sones of Eli; thou shalt give it me now, and if not, I will take it by force. The Presbyteriall gouerment (saith he) hatteth such proceedings.

20. The prelates and their high-comission-court (saith he) did assume potestatem utriusq gladij, the power of both the temporal an[d] civill sword; the Presbyteriall gouerment medleth with no ciuill nor temporall punishments. Arons-Rod. fol: 179.*

Thus we haue giuen you many of the differences between these tow

• George Gillespie was a minister at Edinburgh, and a member of the celebrated Westminster Assembly of Divines. Among his many books was the one cited by Bradford: "Aaron's Rod blossoming; or, the Divine Ordinance of Church Government vindicated"; London, 1646.-Ed.

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gourments, by one of them selues, and in his owne words. sundrie more might be made; neither will we now skane the practise of the Presbyterieans, how answerable it is in all things to some of these grounds.

YONG-MEN.

These are very deepe charges and wound sorely this Nationall Gouermente by prelates and lord bishops & their substitutes. And it is like if the head be thus corrupte and distempred the body cannot be sounde, but ill-affected. We desire to hear something thereof, and then that you will proceede to speake some thing of the Presbiterians, and their gouermente.

ANCIENT-MEN.

We shall not say much herein, because it hath bene obuious to euery mans eyes and eares, and some testimonies might be thought partiall. Take therefore only these tow; first, Archb. Whitgift saith, now the church is full of hypocrites, dissemblers, drunkards, whoremongers, ignorant-persons, papistes, atheistes, and such like. Ans: to the Admõition, pag ·44• 45·*

And Doctor Bilson saith, to our churches comes all sortes, atheistes, hypocrites, &c., all which filth, (saith M. Jacob,) ought verily to be imputed to non-residents and pluralists; and that a diocesan bishop must needs be a great pluralist and non-resident him selfe, for he hath the proper charge of soules, ouer all his cirquite; that is, ouer many hundred congregations, and for the most part is neuer with them, nor so much as euer saw their faces. Jacobs Attestation, fol: 131.

And Mr Caluin saith, that it is a prodigious and monstrous mishcheefous wickednes, vtterly against God, against nature, and against the ecclesiasticall gouerment, that one arrante theefe should sitt ouer diuers churches-together, and that he should be called their pastor, which cannot be present with his flock though he would. Wetenhall, pag 145.

Thus you see the complection of this Nationall-Church; and the causes therof, in a great measure; and what just ground ther hath been of complainte and bearing witnes against the same, by those who haue suffered hard measure for so doing, from men; but their reward is with the Lord.

* John Whitgift, Archbishop of Canterbury, wrote a number of books, among which was "An Answere to a certan Libell, entitled, An Admonition to the Parliament," London, 1571. He died at Lambeth, 1604.- ED.

YONG-MEN.

We must acknowledg you haue giuen vs more light in these things then we in many things saw before, and we doubt not but such as haue been faithfull to the Lord & his truth shall reap the fruit of their labours. But we pray you to procceed to speak of the Presbiterian gouermente.

OF THE PRESBYTERIANS.

ANCIENTE-MEN.

The Reformed Churches, vnder the Presbyterian gouerment, we esteeme and reuerence the as the true churches of Christ; being for the maine rightly constituted and reformed according to the word of God; at least in those grounds and principles laid downe and held forth by those excelente men and shining lightes which the Lord reaised vp in the first times of Reformation; as we haue allready seen by the testimonies of sundrie of them, & by many more may appeare. But it were to be wished that many things had been better examined and mended according to the true standard and right patterne of the word of God, as we doubt not but many of them selues were of the same minde, and were contented to beare with, and suffer many things which, in regard of the condition of the times and places in which they liued, they knew not how to help or mende. And what hath been left vnreformed at first hath seldom been mended affterwards, but rather grown worse, as too much experience hath showne. And this that excelent and holy man Peter Martyre well kewe, when he write to the ministers of Polonia. Who seeth not (saith he) that when a mater is defered, desired occations are lost. Wherfore bestire your selues with speede, Breethren, pluck vp by the rootes all superstition, and false opinions; let the euill seeds & rotten roots be "cut vp euen in the verie begining, for if they be neglected at the "first (I know what I say) they are with dificulty taken away after"ward I haue seene some (saith he) which haue pared away the "leaues, flowers & fruits of superstition, but haue spared the roots, "which haue afterward sprunge vp againe, to the great hurt of the "Lords vinyeard. Epis: to the Ministers of Poland, pag .87. Well had it been had this good and holsom counsell bene better followed, both by them and others.

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YONG-MEN.

We desire to know how them selues describe or speake of the church; and how the same may be knowne and discerned.

ANCIENT-MEN.

Vsually they distinguish betweene the Catholick-church and a perticuler-church. The Catholick church is some time taken by them for all the electe of God, that euer haue been, or shall be, euen all the saints that euer haue been or shall be in the world; and some time, for all the faithfull that liue disperced through the whole world in any present age.

But of a perticuler church (which most concernes our mater in hand) you haue heard before, how that Zuinglius & others say, the church is taken for the seuerall congr[eg]ations which conueniently meete togeather in some one place, for the hear[ing] of the word, and receiuing the sacraments, which are by the Greecians called parikias, & of this maner of church Christ speaketh, Mat 18. Tell the church and the Apostle I Cor. 5.

And the French Confession, Art 27. hath these words, We affirme out of the word of God, that the church is a company of the faithfull, wh agree togeather in following the word of God & imbracing pure religion, wherin they allso dayly profite, &c. Herman: Conf: page 320.

And in the Belgia Confession it is said the true church may be discerned from the false by these notes: First, if the pure preaching of the Gospell doe florish in it; if it haue the lawfull administration of the sacraments according to Christs institution; if it doe use the right ecclesiasticall discipline for the restraining of uice; finaly, if it doe square all things to the rule of Gods word, refusing whatsoeuer is contrarie to it, &c. Hermon: Conf: page 322· *

All the rest doe for the most part agree herein, as may be seen more at large in the 10 section of the Church. Hermon of Conf: 306 & following.

And the Scotch Conffesion saith, whersoeuer the former notes are seen and of any time continue, ther, without all doubte, is the true church of Christ (be the number neuer so few) who, according to his promise, is in the midst of them. Not in the vniversall (say they),

* "An Harmony of the Confessions of the Faith of the Christian and Reformed Churches in Europe. Translated out the Latine. Added the Confession of the Church of Scotland." 4to, 1643.- ED.

of which we haue spoken before, but perticuler, such as were in Corinth, Galacia, Ephesus, and other places, in which the ministrie was planted by Paull, and were by him selfe named the churches of God, &c. Hermonie of Conf: pag 18.

YONG-MEN.

Seeing they hold this ground of perticuler churches, and that ther are in these churches a presbyterie or eldership, with power of discipline, as you haue now showed vs, & before in the 6 differencs made by Mr. Gillespie betweene them selues and the prelats, ther may seeme herein no difference betweene them and those of the Con. gregationall-way. If ther be, we pray you show vs wherin it lyeth.

ANCIENT-MEN.

We shall show you how the afforesaid author, Mr. Gillespie, giues a hint herof; though he doth but touch it by the way. What is it (saith he) that can denominate many perticuler visible churches or congregations to be one visible minist[e]riall flock or church, vnlesse it be their vnion and association vnder one ecclesiasticall gouerment? No doubte (saith he) they had the administration of the word and sacraments partitiue or seuerall. Nor doe I deney (saith he) but they had a partitiue seuerall gouermente, which did denominate them to be one visible ecclesiasticall flock. Aarons-Rodd, fol: 298.

By which you may perceiue vpon what botome their Presbyteriall gouerment is founded; for though they hould (& that rightly), that euery perticuler church ought to haue their owne officers, viz. elders & deacons, and of their elders some are to teach & others for to rule & gouerne, of which their presbyterie or eldership doth consiste, and these exercise some kind of discipline and gouermente amongest them selues;

Yet they hold that such perticuler churches are to enter into a bond of association with other churches; and by vertu of this conssociation they erecte classises and sinods, both prouinciall and nationall, and vpon the same ground some ascend higher to generall councells or sinods. And vnto these they ascribe superior power & jurisdiction one ouer another, to whom they alow apeales from one to an other, till they come to the highest. And out of their perticuler presbiteries the perticuler churches chose delegates for the classes, & so other superior courts; by which means, (say they) all the members of each church thus conssociate become subjecte to, and are bound to obey

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