the 130,000l. the expense of the collection of the stamp duties, he was at a loss to conceive how the hon. member proposed to effect it. The house was aware, that the stamp duties applied to almost all transactions in life; that the amount of the stamp duties exceeded five millions; that it was necessary to have distributors, or sub-distributors in all parts of the country; and it would consequently be obvious, that the sum expended in the collection, was as small as it could possibly be. In fact, the treasury in January last issued orders for reducing the allowance from 4 to 3 per cent. but it was found that persons could not be had to collect the duties, and consequently the former allowance was necessarily restored. The hon. gentleman then took a cursory view of the arguments of the hon. gentleman (Mr. Wardle) respecting the customs and excise, contending always that the greatest regard was paid to economy in the regulation and collection of the duties thereof. He then ridiculed the idea thrown out by the hon. gentlemen of that house inspecting and auditing the public accounts, a duty wholly incompatible with the attendance of gentlemen in that house, and in committees of that house. The hon. gentleman was certainly wrong, if he supposed the French treasury ever gained a million annually by the Newfoundland fishery, although the country might have derived benefit to that amount. When the hon. gentleman spoke of hundreds of millions unaccounted for, he must admit that there had been an arrear of two or three years in the auditing the accounts of the pay-office. These accounts, however, as well as those of the treasurer of the navy, were now in a course of examiHe deprecated those general assertions made by the hon. gentleman, and which might do a great deal of mischief by misleading the ignorant multitude. Was that the way that the hon. gentleman meant to push forward reform, by inducing the multitude to believe that it was only for want of reform that the pressure of taxes was felt? He could however boldly assert, that notwithstanding the weight of our taxes, there was no country in the civilized world which shewed less symptoms of deterioration or decay. "I am aware (said the hon. gent.) that the sum levied annually upon the people of this country, now three times as great as it was in

nation.

the year 1793; and though this weightof taxation is severely felt by some classes, and especially by those who possess only unimproveable fixed in-、 comes, a circumstance greatly to be regretted, I maintain that upon the whole, the present generation of the people of England, considered as a na tion, have more means of procuring to themselves the enjoyments of life than any of their predecessors; that, in point of fact, we witness daily, in every part of the country, a greater degree of luxury, and a greater share of comfort than at any former period; and that there is no corner of the kingdom in which, so far from there existing any symptoms of deterioration or decay, we have not seen, within these last twenty years, the most certain indications of improvement; and improvement, however retarded by continued war and increasing burthens, still progressive, and adding every year, more or less, to the stock of national weath and public prosperity. The actual sum levied upon the people of this country, in proportion to the population, is, I admit, greater than any other country of Europe; but notwithstanding this circumstance, I am fully convinced that there is no great nation on the continent in which the taxes are so lightly felt, and collected with so little of oppression and vexation as in this country." If the hon. gentle man were to compare the amount of the taxes in this country with those in France, he would find that the taxes imposed in France are more oppressive when the means of the people to pay them were taken into consideration. The mode of collection in France was also much more oppressive than in this country. The land-tax there, in many instances amounted to one-half of the rent; and if it was left in arrear, the government sent soldiers to live at free quarters in the house of the individual who was in their debt. The assertions which the hon. gentleman had made respecting the navy were not original. A gallant admiral had, before he came into office, stated that he believed onethird of the expences of the navy might be saved. That gallant admiral afterwards came into office himself, as a lord of the admiralty. Many people were then anxious to see what great reform he would introduce in the naval expen diture; but he believed the gallant admiral himself would now confess that

his former assertion was rash. He considered that assertions of this nature were very dangerous, and regretted that the statement of the hon. member had been made so late in the session.

Mr. Parnell. Before, Sir, I make any reply to the arguments of the hon. member who spoke last, I feel myself called upon by what he said in the conclusion of his speech, to assert, that a charge more unfounded could not be made by one member against another, than that which he has brought forward against the hon. member behind me, for making the statement which he has this evening brought forward on the last day of the session. I appeal to every member in the house, whether or not the hon. member was not compelled to do so; and whether it was possible for him after the threat that was held over him, from the moment at which he first expressed his opinion of the savings that might be made in the public expenditure, to prevent the session to close, without coming down to the house, and stating the grounds of that opinion. The hon. member has said, that the hon. mover has made a statement of mere assertion, and that he could just as easily have proved a saving of a million as a saving of 500,000l. whenever he has said that he could save the latter sum. This, Sir, I positively deny; the statement of the hon. member was replete with sound argument, supported by indisputable facts, and corroborated by the best authorities; nothing was advanced in it which the hon. member did not most satisfactorily sustain, and it was very evident that when the house heard this statement, a great degree of surprise was excited, in consequence of the extent of proof which the hon. member was able to advance in support of his general opinion. In what the hon. member opposite has said respecting the expenditure of last year, being greater than the expenditure of the preceding year by 7 millions, he has altogether misrepresented the hon. member behind

me.

He made no such absurd position, as to say, that, because the expenditure had increased 7 millions, therefore a saving might be effected of 11.He referred to this fact merely with a view of shewing, that the grounds existed for forming a presumption that a considerable saving might be effected, and that whatever he advanced in the detail raight be borne out. But how does the

hon, member account for this increased expenditure? He says that a million and a half of it was paid to the East-India company, and to make out the remainder, he says, that we are to consider the great advance that has taken place in prices! Why, Sir, here it is that the argument of the hon. member behind me appears in its full force. Why has so great an advance in prices taken place? Is it in consequence of any im provident measure of this house? I, Sir, maintain that it is--and that if this house did form a true representative body of the people, giving full effect to the abilities of the country, no such measures could have taken place as the orders in council, which is the immediate cause of this great advance in prices, and most particularly so in all articles for the navy, the purchase of which forms so considerable an item in the public expenditure. When, Sir, I come to consider the observations of the hon. member upon the statement which has, been made to the house, I cannot avoid remarking how very superficially he has dwelt upon that part of it which relates to the army. It is in this department, where, according to common notoriety, the greatest abuses prevail; and in the general management of which, a greater want of sound principles is generally conceived to exist than in any other de partment; and though the hon. member behind me has made out items on which six millions, in his opinion, might be saved, the hon. member opposite has confined his observations to two of them: only, the foreign corps and fortifications. Is the house to conclude from this that the hon. member is unable to meet the arguments and authorities advanced upon this general head? I think, Sir, it has, in a great degree, a right to do so; it has at least a right to infer that the hon. member who has proposed this saying, has not done so on the light grounds of mere assertion, imputed to him by the hon. member. As to the foreign corps, any thing that was said on this head was founded upon the opinion of the most able military and con stitutional authorities. The argument of the hon. member, that 700,000l. the whole estimate for fortifications, might as well be taken off as 500,000l. is founded in a misconception of what had been said on the subject. Five hundred thousand pounds was proposed to be taken off, on the principle that

no new

ment has taken credit for 500,000l. as a sum that might be saved, if the British colonies were so managed, that each should defray nearly all the expence belonging to its own defence. He stated the great value of the fisheries of Cape Breton and Newfoundland, in order to shew, that if due attention was paid to them, the inhabitants of those colonies might be enabled to defray all the expences of them, and cease to be burdensome to this country. Now, Sir, as to the opinion which the hon. member behind me entertains respecting the military expenditure of Ireland in this I most fully concur with him-and am desirous to bear with him equal responsibility for the accuracy of it-for I defy any one to shew that this greatly-increased expenditure, from 100,000l. in the American war to two millions in 1799, and to near five millions in 1809, can be accounted for by any other means than by the impolitic resistance which is made to the constitutional claims of the people of Ireland. It is notorious to every one, that the object of that expenditure is in a great degree to keep the people in sub jection; and that so large an army would not be wanting, if no such object existed. I have therefore a right to say, that if a wiser policy was adopted in governing Ireland, a great portion of this expenditure might be saved, and an additional security obtained for the defence of the country, against invasion, in the hearts and affections of the whole people of Ireland. I must here, Sir, remark upon another point on which the hon. member opposite has greatly mistaken the statement of the hon. member behind me. He has urged as if he took credit for a great saving to be effected in the naval department, in order to make out a total saving of 11 millions. He has done no such thing. The savings which he has calculated exclusive of the navy amount to 10,693,5631. I have felt it due, Sir, to the hon. member behind me, to make these observations in explanation and support of what he has said. The hon. member has undertaken a task of great responsibility, and one attended with great labour, with a view to promote a public object-his exertions, and the manner in which he has made out the grounds of his opinion, entitle him to the thanks of this house and of the country; and as I, Sir, think that the investigation which he has set on foot into every branch of the public

expenditure will be attended with the best possible effects, I have felt it my duty to give what support it has lain in my power to give him.

Mr. Rose did not think it necessary to take up the time of that house, after the lucid statement of his hon. friend. But with regard to the bounties, a great deal of what was so called were positive drawbacks, which if stopped, would, in the first place, expose to poverty and misery 30,000 weavers of Spitalfields, besides destroying much of the comforts and conveniences of seamen and others. It was utterly impossible that 1000l. could be saved in this way, without infinite mischief.

Mr. Marryat said, that the merchants were extremely anxious to have more officers in the customs rather than to have the number diminished.

Mr. H. Thornton took notice of the steps which had been taken by the committee of finance, to reform many abuses of which the hon. gentleman had complained. As to the pension list, he certainly wished it was smaller, but there were many parts of it which no man would wish to reduce. There were pensions to the amount of 355,000l. annually to the royal family, and about 70,000l. annually to the proprietors of Irish boroughs, as compensations under the act of union. There were also pen sions very properly given to many meritorious servants of the crown. It did not appear to him that out of the whole pension list there was more than 400,000l. per annum on which the proposed re duction could have any operation.

The several motions for papers in the various branches of expenditure adverted to in the hon. gentleman's speech were then read.

Lord Castlereagh and Mr. Huskisson objected to several, as being stated in such a way as to render it impossible to comply with them. The latter suggested, hat the best plan would be to leave it, to ministers to make up the accounts according to the scope of the motions in the best manner they could; and if the returns were not satisfactory the hon. gentleman might renew his motions next session.

Mr. Wardle assented to this, and all the motions were agreed to.

Mr. Perceval moved for a return of livings in Scotland and Ireland under the value of 1501. a year.-Ordered.

Mr. P. Moore begged again to call the attention of the right houourable the Chancellor of the Exchequer to the papers which were printed, on his motion, in April last, respecting two refractory accountants under Mr. Lukin, viz. Mr. Woodford and Mr. Gardener, who had separately received large sums of money from the public, for the professed service of foreign corps. He said, the right hon. gentleman and house would find those papers of great political import, and would not now press his attention to them, further than expressing his confidence, that the mentioning the subject to the right hon. gentleman would, as on a former occasion, rivet his attention. He had heard with satisfaction, that in consequence of what he had before suggested, the right hon. gentleman interfered with the auditors; that since then Mr. Woodford had fled the country, and the auditors had subsequently gone through the ceremony of opening a box of vouchers left by Mr. Woodford; but he could not learn whether any further proceedings had been taken; he therefore thought it his duty to call the attention of the right hon. gentleman and of the house, to the great point which ought to be immediately looked at. They would see, by the papers above referred to, that Mr. Woodford had to account for upwards of 300,000l. and that Mr. Gardener had separately to account for upwards of 180,0001; whereas it would appear that Mr. Woodford had given in accounts, taking upon himself the whole of these two sums, thereby collusively covering and exempting Mr. G. as if no such person existed, or no such sums had ever been issued to Mr. G. Now, said Mr. Moore, Mr. G. received the money from Mr. Lukin, not from Mr. Woodford, but in his answers to the commissioners of the inquiry, (not on outh like the other witnesses), it will be observed he said, he had received the money from Mr. Woodford, and merely conveyed it as he received it from him; which is completely contradicted by the papers now before the house. Mr. Moore said, he thought it his particular duty to call the attention of the house to this subject at this time, as Mr. Woodford having quitted the country, no time should be lost in examining a box of vouchers which Mr. W. has left, forthwith, so far to relieve Mr. W's account in the

VOL. VI.

sum of 180,0001. received by Mr. G. from Mr. Lukin, and to examine Mr. G. on oath, on his own accounts, as the auditors had repeatedly required, but which it appears has been as often prevented by undue influence in some quarter or other! Mr. Moore said, he was exceedingly desirous that this should be accomplished without delay, as it was necessary to clear up some points of the 7th report of the commissioners of the military inquiry; and he hoped the examinations would be in a condition to be produced at the next meeting of parlia ment, to render that report in a more perfect condition for consideration than it at present afforded.

Mr. Huskisson said, that no doubt the auditors would take the subject into consideration, and examine the accounts and vouchers appertaining to them, and do what was right.

Mr. Perceval said, that it was very true Mr. Woodford had quitted the country, but that he had written a letter notifying that he had appointed an agent to fulfil these duties, and to produce his vouchers to the auditors; and he had no doubt but the auditors, though they could not be expected to break off in the middle of their investigation of other accounts, for the purpose of taking up this subject in particular, would fulfil their duties.

Mr. Moore said, he was afraid he was not understood, and therefore repeated, that it was not Mr. Woodford or his agent that was to be called upon separately to account for 500,000l. but that Mr. Gardener, who was on the spot, should be called upon separately to account for 180,000l. which he had received from Mr. Lukin, and not from Mr. W. that Mr. Woodford's account should be exonerated in the sum of 180,000l.— that Mr. G. should be called upon to make good that sum, as he had separately received it,-and that if that was not done, Mr. G. would virtually escape with 180,000l. without any account or examination at all, as no accounts or examination of Mr. Woodford could answer that purpose, or be any satisfac tion to the public. Mr. Moore said that these were sums of magnitude, and about which the public, whose attention had been particularly attracted to it, ought to be satisfied; and that having stated the facts in his place, he had so far fulfilled his duty to them.