BOULDER CANYON PROJECT ADJUSTMENT ACT

FRIDAY, MAY 31, 1940

UNITED STATES SENATE,

COMMITTEE ON IRRIGATION AND RECLAMATION,

Washington, D. C.

The committee met, pursuant to recess, at 10:30 a. m., in Room 101, Senate Office Building, Senator Henry F. Ashurst (presiding). Present: Senators Ashurst (presiding), McCarran, Chavez, Clark,

and Johnson.

Also present: Senator Downey.

Senator ASHURST. The committee will come to order, please.
Senator Chavez, you have some amendments to offer?

Senator CHAVEZ. Yes; I have. Our State engineer and chairman of the water commission will be here by Monday. That is the earliest they can get here. They were under the impression that a meeting of the State representatives was to be held at Salt Lake on Monday, and made arrangements to attend that meeting. I had a wire that it would be impossible for them to be here before Monday.

Senator ASHURST. You are not prepared to present the amendment yourself?

Senator CHAVEZ. I would rather not, because they have been attending some of these hearings. We may also have some further testimony for the hearings from the representatives of the Indian Bureau who are interested in whatever rights the Navajo Tribe of Indians may have in the waters of the San Juan.

Senator ASHURST. All right, Senator.

Senator CHAVEZ. I would like to ask Judge Stone one or two further questions.

Senator ASHURST. Judge Stone.

STATEMENT OF CLIFFORD H. STONE-Resumed

Senator CHAVEZ. Judge Stone, I wish you would tell the committee, if you will and can, just under what circumstances the wording of the bill on page 6, line 18, was brought about. That is the item that contains the $1,500,000 that shall be used for investigation by the Bureau of Reclamation for the formulation of a comprehensive plan for the utilization of waters of the Colorado River system for irrigation, electric power, and other purposes, in the States of the upper division and the States of the lower division. Why was the language inserted in that manner?

Mr. STONE. Do you refer to the words "States of the upper division and States of the lower division?"

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Senator CHAVEZ. That is right.

Mr. STONE. That language is the language used in the Colorado River compact, and those terms have come to have a significance, because of the Colorado River compact and their definition in that compact.

Senator CHAVEZ. Was not the purpose of creating this fund of $1,500,000 to take care of the investigatory needs of the upper basin States only?

Mr. STONE. No; that was not the purpose; it is obvious that if there is to be a comprehensive investigation it must cover the entire basin. The use of water in the lower basin, according to plans which may be developed, has a definite relation to the use of water in the upper division, and obviously it would be unfair to devote all of those funds to investigate just projects in the upper basin. There are projects yet in the lower basin to be investigated, but according to the list-which, may I explain, is only a tentative list-which I submitted, you will observe that it is recognized that there is much more work to be done in the upper division than in the lower division. For that reason all but approximately $250,000 of that money is indicated for investigation in the upper division.

Senator CHAVEZ. All right. Then from a practical standpoint and an equitable standpoint, there should be investigation in the lowerbasin States, we will say, of California and Arizona?

Mr. STONE. And Nevada.

Senator CHAVEZ. For instance, can you state to the committee one site in the entire area in Nevada where an investigation for the development of power should be made on the Colorado River?

Mr. STONE. Well, there is both power and some irrigation development in Nevada.

Senator CHAVEZ. That is in the tributaries?

Mr. STONE. Well, along the main stream. I understand that Congressman Scrugham has a plan for some small projects in small areas along the river which he desires investigated, and obviously, if we are to have a complete and comprehensive plan, they will be investigated.

Senator CHAVEZ. Now, I believe I understood you to say that some members of the committee in the lower House wanted to change that word "equitably" to "equally" distributed in the upper-basin States and lower-basin States.

Mr. STONE. I do not know as any of them wanted it done. It was mentioned, and the bill as reported out of the committee leaves the word "equitably." It has been mentioned; yes.

Senator CHAVEZ. Don't you think it would be fair and just, if we wanted to do what is right by all the States, that they should share equally?

Mr. STONE. I see no objection to changing that word "equitably" to "equally." May I say here if you use the word "equitably," Colorado, producing 70 percent of the water probably having more land susceptible of irrigation than the other States, might have more claim than the other States, and yet I feel that this $500,000 should be equitably apportioned, and probably an equal portion would be an inequitable apportionment, because, after all, this $500,000 will only be part of the money that is needed to develop those basins, and

changing that to "equally," making the division equally between the four States, in my opinion, would be an inequitable adjustment.

Senator CHAVEZ. Of course, you understand, Judge Stone, as far as New Mexico is concerned, the only possibility of development will be along the San Juan River.

Mr. STONE. Yes. There is a large project, however, which has been investigated, which considers water from the Animas over to the La Plata, and then there is the Chama-San Juan diversion. Both of those projects should be investigated. The Chama-San Juan diversion was investigated in the Rio Grande joint investigation, but no doubt there is other work to be done there. It is my opinion that unquestionably the completion of that survey will be made. That is in the discretion of the Bureau of Reclamation.

Senator CHAVEZ. That is right; it has to be in the discretion of the Bureau of Reclamation. They could do it if they wanted to, and not do it if they do not want to.

Mr. STONE. I do not see how a plan of comprehensive development could be worked out, according to the terms of this, without exhaustively investigating each and every project, particularly a major project of this nature.

Senator CHAVEZ. If you notice the chart that has been inserted in the record here, presented by Mr. Debler, the San Juan-Chama was not included.

Mr. STONE. Neither was the Blue diversion in Colorado, which was larger than the San Juan. The reason that was not included is because this was a mere tentative list, and both the San Juan and the Blue have been, in a large degree, investigated. No doubt the purpose was to list projects which had not yet been investigated in any degree. I suppose there is a list of 15 small projects not completed in Colorado, in the Colorado River Basin, but there is no doubt in our mind but what that investigation will be completed.

Senator CHAVEZ. That is, if the Bureau finds, in their discretion, it is feasible, then it should do it?

Mr. STONE. I do not believe they will determine the feasibility prior to investigation. The feasibility will have to be founded upon an investigation.

Senator CHAVEZ. All right. What objection would there be, in order that New Mexico may get its proportionate share of whatever benefits may accrue, for this legislation to be used as New Mexico desires?

Mr. STONE. The fact of the matter, Senator Chavez, is that through the activities of the Committee of 14 working with the Bureau of Reclamation, particularly through Mr. E. B. Debler, chief hydraulic engineer, the Bureau has been very cooperative in recognizing the desires of the States for investigation. Under that procedure, in a number of meetings which we have had, each State has brought into the meetings and put on the table the projects which they desired to have investigated, and have talked that matter over with Mr. Debler. The proceedings of that committee will show that Mr. Debler expressed the desire and policy of investigating all projects which the States desire, which were within reason of consideration.

Senator CHAVEZ. Even if that was in his mind, the chart still shows that Mr. Debler has only allocated out of this $1,500,000, $35,000 for the State of New Mexico. We do not think that is either equitable, just, or fair.

Mr. STONE. I do not think that is a binding list. It is only a tentative list to indicate approximately how much money it would take to conduct investigations, and even with New Mexico, as I say, there is one large project in Colorado, the largest one we have, the Blue diversion, which is not listed because it is in the same category as the Chama-San Juan. There has been an investigation which puts it in the picture.

Senator CHAVEZ. New Mexico does not object to Colorado putting forward any of the projects that they desire and to get their full share of this.

Mr. STONE. If you examine the proceedings you will find that Mr. Debler has mentioned the Chama-San Juan and Blue, and has stated that whatever is necessary to complete those investigations will be done.

Senator CHAVEZ. That is all, Judge. Thank you.
Senator ASHURST. Mr. John C. Page.

STATEMENT OF JOHN C. PAGE, COMMISSIONER OF BUREAU OF
RECLAMATION

Senator ASHURST. State your name and your position.

Mr. PAGE. John C. Page, Commissioner of Bureau of Reclamation.

Senator ASHURST. How long have you held that position?

Mr. PAGE. Since 1937.

Senator ASHURST. Senator Chavez, you may proceed with any questions that you have.

Senator CHAVEZ. Mr. Page, prior to the money being obtained by the appropriation of the special bill appropriating $50,000 for the investigation of the San Juan, did the Reclamation Bureau make any studies of the possibilities or feasibilities of a project on the San Juan River for a transmountain diversion dam?

Mr. PAGE. Nothing of any consequence. We did make a preliminary reconnaisance. We thought that something could be developed there, but money was not available to make a complete investigation.

Senator CHAVEZ. After the Bureau had allocated this money under the appropriation, did you make an investigation and a survey of the possibilities of the transmountain diversion dam?

Mr. PAGE. We made a rather complete investigation of the thing in connection with the general Rio Grande investigation, sponsored by the National Resources Planning Board. At that time we made estimates on the cost of the work, the physical features that would be involved in making that transmountain diversion from the San Juan to the Rio Chama, and included that in the report of the National Resources Planning Board as an overall picture on the Rio Grande.

Senator CHAVEZ. Did that include an investigation of the needs of the San Juan County people themselves, including the Navajo Indians?

Mr. PAGE. I think that took into account all prospective uses of the San Juan, with the expectation that probably some conservation work, storage, or something of that kind, would be necessary before there was water exported. That is, it would be necessary to augment the low water supply before an exportation was possible during

that low water season. That did not ripen into what we consider now as the final answer. That is, there are quite a number of questions still left unsolved in connection with the San Juan-Rio Chama diversion, but that principle of protecting the Navajo and white settlers in the San Juan was given consideration at that time.

Senator CHAVEZ. Are you acquainted with the general needs of a water supply in the Rio Grande area, especially from the Colorado line down to the Rio Grande irrigation project at Elephant Butte? Mr. PAGE. The water supply of the Rio Grande is entirely used. There is no excess water, no possibility of additional development, as we see it, on the Rio Grande unless water is imported. From our preliminary reconnaissance this San Juan-Rio Chama seems to be the best and only way in which New Mexico can use its share of the Colorado River water.

Senator CHAVEZ. Do you still have to make further surveys to come to a definite conclusion?

Mr. PAGE. To reach a final decision as to what the cost would be, and the details of that thing, we should have some drilling, dam site drilling, and some more detailed study on the geology of the transmountain tunnel, and several things which should be cinched before we are willing to say that this is what it is going to cost.

Senator CHAVEZ. Is it your purpose, if this bill should be enacted into law, to use some of the money that will be created in this special fund?

Mr. PAGE. Undoubtedly, because we hope to use this money which would be made available by this law to make a complete inventory of all the possibilities of irrigation and development that the Colorado River water in New Mexico and the other States might have, and this is thus far the most attractive proposition that has shown up in that part of New Mexico.

Senator CHAVEZ. What other sources of water supply are there in San Juan County, outside of the tributaries of the San Juan?

Mr. PAGE. I think there are none that could be counted on for any material amount of water. They seem to be the only source from which you can get water enough to make it worth while.

Senator CHAVEZ. This Animas-La Plata project that has been discussed here is only a small item?

Mr. PAGE. Yes; and that is pretty well covered by a compact, and pretty well used. The storage on the La Plata will help the situation. It has already ripened into an interstate compact.

Senator CHAVEZ. That can only be used by the people who are now using that water?

Mr. PAGE. Yes.

Senator CHAVEZ. And will not provide additional acreage or an additional supply for anything else?

Mr. PAGE. There seems to be no possibility of developing any additional area.

Senator CHAVEZ. Are there any projects contemplated at or near Aztec in San Juan County?

Mr. PAGE. I cannot answer that positively, but none of any consequence that I know of.

Senator CHAVEZ. Then in short, the only possibility to get additional water in the Rio Grande Valley would be through a storage transmountain diversion?