after leaving New Mexico. We feel for that reason that we have an appreciable interest in developing that water under the Colorado River compact. Senator MCCARRAN. What would you say the acre-foot flow was per year? Mr. McCLURE. A mean average of approximately 2,500,000 acrefeet per year. Our major project of putting that water to use in New Mexico is the transmountain diversion from the San Juan to the Chama and Rio Grande Basin, which is decidedly overappropriated, that is, the Rio Grande Basin water is. It involves shortages on that stream in some areas practically every year. The other project for the utilization of that water would be our Navajo Indian project, which is a very expensive project. The lands are scattered and the construction of canals, the construction of storage facilities at the present time, with lifts that might be necessary for pumping to utilize all the lands that are irrigable, is far beyond our anticipation at this time. There are some 50,000 acres of land under irrigation in New Mexico on the San Juan. Our interest in the adoption of amendments to this bill before us is in order to get a full protection for New Mexico, so that we can see a possible way of helping to finance the development of this transmountain diversion, so that we can put to beneficial use the equitable portion that we have in the 7,500,000 acre-feet allotted to the four upper States. We felt, on the basis of the Sands report, that we had arrived at an equitable apportionment. Taking all factors into consideration, placing the rate of falling water at Boulder Dam on a competitive basis, both for steam and taking into consideration the district, we have definitely shown by facts that were brought out in our meetings that the rate of falling water at Boulder Dam was far below the rate of either T. V. A., Bonneville, or any other project of the United States of major hydroelectric plants. Mr. Sands worked with the Los Angeles engineers, among which there is a material difference of opinion in three or four matters, in which they never reached an agreement in any way. However, we felt that the Sands report, being made by Mr. Sands, who is an outstanding electrical engineer in the West, was sound and consistent in regard to the principles used nowadays. He corrected at several times after taking into consideration new developments which the Bureau of Power and Light had brought into the efficiency of their lines and their set-up out there. The upper-basin States, as Governor Hannett, said, approved this report and accepted it as being the basis for consideration. That is New Mexico's stand. We see no reason now to go back of that. On that basis, why, we feel that we should be fully protected for our development of the Colorado River Basin. Under the joint investigation of the Rio Grande, which was conducted by the National Resources Committee, under the Planning Board, which was a factual investigation of three States, Texas, New Mexico, and Colorado, for presenting the factual data, which did consummate itself into a compact and settle the controversy of the Rio Grande, a full investigation at an expenditure of some $52,000 was made on the transmountain diversion. Its feasibility was established at that time, and an estimate of cost was made. The sounding of dam sites, the drilling of dam sites, the geology study, everything is complete with probably the exception of final design for contracting and construction work and for obtaining the right-of-way. There were two projects set up in that—that is, two lines run-and an estimate of cost was made of both of those for economy's sake, to determine which was the most economic. Under the Rio Grande compact the project is agreed to by Colorado with the qualification that present and prospective uses of the State of Colorado will not be injured. They have one small diversion that was studied at the same time as this, which would involve only 52,000 acre-feet of water. Senator ASHURST. May I ask you there, is the relief you seek expressed in the amendment that was just read? Is that what you seek? Mr. McCLURE. I believe it is; yes. Senator ASHURST. You do not ask any additional amendment or change? Mr. McCLURE. No. Senator ASHURST. Except this amendment? Mr. McCLURE. I think that will cover it very well, Senator. Senator ASHURST. Senator Chavez. Senator CHAVEZ. Governor Hannett stated that if the transmountain diversion project was concluded we would use 350,000 acre-feet, more or less. Mr. McCLURE. That is right. Senator CHAVEZ. If we use 350,000 acre-feet, there would still be a little better than 3,000,000 acre-feet to go down the Boulder Dam? Mr. McCLURE. There would be a little less than 2,000,000 acre-feet. Senator CHAVEZ. A little less than 2,000,000 acre-feet? Mr. MCCLURE. Yes. Senator CHAVEZ. So we do not use all of the water, or hardly any of the water, that would flow down the San Juan River? Mr. MCCLURE. None at all, hardly. We have 50,000 acres that are depleting their quota of that stream. That, of course, has been under irrigation for many years and is included. Above that we still have approximately 2,500,000 acre-feet per year passing out of the State. Senator CHAVEZ. Senator Hatch, do you want to ask any questions? Senator HATCH. No; I do not. Senator CHAVEZ. Mr. Chairman, I ask permission of the committee to insert in the record of committee hearings, excerpts of testimony on the subject matter contained in the Report of Proceedings of the Fact Finding Committee of the Upper Colorado River Basin States, Green River, Wyo., July 1938, volume 2, page 286, as follows: Mr. WALLACE. What is the status now as to construction? Mr. MCCLURE. I believe that the project with the exception of right-of-way would be practically ready for construction, wouldn't it Mr. Debler? Mr. DEBLER. I would say this, the work is in the same State as we usually proceed to construction. You couldnt' get construction contracts, but if money became available for construction we would then proceed to the final location surveys and the designing of the dam. Mr. WALLACE. The surveys are nearly enough complete to determine the feasibility? Mr. DEBLER. No further surveys needed for feasibility. STATEMENT OF WALTER E. WOEHLKE, ASSISTANT TO THE COMMISSIONER OF INDIAN AFFAIRS, WASHINGTON, D. C. Senator ASHURST. Your full name for the record, sir. Mr. WOEHLKE. Walter E. Woelke. Assistant to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, Washington, D. C. Senator CHAVEZ. Mr. Woehlke, are you acquainted with the whole area of the Colorado River River Basin that includes the San Juan River and the tributaries? Mr. WOEHLKE. I am fairly familiar with that whole region, Sen ator. Senator CHAVEZ. Will you kindly state to the committee in your own words what, if any interest the Navajo Indians might have under this compact, the possibilities of the development of those interests under the pending legislation, and anything that you may care to say to the committee? Mr. WOEHLKE. May I first state, Senator, the Indian Service is interested in the proper development and use of the waters of the San Juan on both sides of the Continental Divide, both in the Rio Grande area and in the San Juan basin as such. In the Rio Grande Valley, to which it is contemplated to divert 350,000 acre-feet of the San Juan waters, the Indian Service is interested in some 20,000 acres of irrigable and irrigated land from which some 14,000 Pueblo Indians now derive the better part of their living. As Governor Hannett and Mr. McClure stated, there is a shortage, a deficiency in the supply of water in the upper Rio Grande Valley even so far as the presently developed and cultivated land is concerned. So, from that angle the Indian Service is distinctly interested in making possible the diversion of the surplus water of the San Juan to the Rio Grande Valley. So far as the San Juan Basin is concerned, the Indian Office has to look after some 50,000 Navajo Indians who are now deriving the bulk of their living from the operation of livestock. Some 10,000 Navajo families are making use of a total area which, for livestock, would be sufficient only to supply a fairly decent living to 600 white families, on the basis of about 1,000 sheep units per white family. So that you have the effort of these 10,000 Navajo families to subsist in an area on livestock which will support enough livestock to take care of approximately 600 white families. On top of that, the Navajos are increasing very rapidly. In fact, the preliminary returns, census returns from one of the Navajo districts in which we had counted 1,200, indicated in this district there were approximately 1,800 Navajos. So that when the census returns are all completed, we may find that we have in excess of 60,000 Navajos trying to make a living on an area which will support only 600 white families. There is no possibility of enlarging the Navajo Reservation as such, so as to provide more range for these 50,000 or 60,000 people, so that they might increase their livestock operations. There is no chance for doing that. So that these people are caught in a steel ring in which they are confined within their reservation boundaries, and within that steel ring they are expanding very rapidly. So that the only way in which they can possibly manage to survive, in which they can expand their production, is through the supply of irrigable land. The entire dependence of these 50,000 Navajos is not on livestock. Approximately 25 to 30 percent of their total livelihood is derived from their dry farming, flood water and irrigation farming. The lot which this irrigated land plays in their support may be judged by the fact that about 134 percent of the total Navajo land surface which is under farming operations, both flood water and irrigation, supplies over 30 percent of their total income. So that the only hope that lies ahead of the Navajos for self-support, continued self-support is through the development of additional irrigated land, and the only source of water for such irrigated land is the San Juan River. There is under consideration, and has been under consideration for some time, the feasibility and possibility of providing storage on the San Juan River to supply some 50,000 to 60,000 or 70,000 acres with irrigation water for the benefit of both the Navajo Indians and of the white residents in San Juan County and other people in the San Juan basin. Senator CHAVEZ. May I interrupt you there? Mr. WOEHLKE. Yes. Senator CHAVEZ. We have several good, first-class white communities in that valley, have we not? Mr. WOEHLKE. Oh, yes. Senator CHAVEZ. Hard-working people? Mr. WOEHLKE. Very hard-working. Senator CHAVEZ. Were not they more or less the overflow of the white settlers that came from Utah into the upper waters of the San Juan? Mr. WOEHLKE. Yes. Senator CHAVEZ. Where they built nice homes and tried to eke out an existence with the shortage of water, water that has not been developed to its full extent? Mr. WOEHLKE. In that isolated region the settlers that came in there from Utah in the early days have built up a series of communities that are models of their kind. There, again, any expansion of those communities is at the present time impossible, because the low water flow of the San Juan is completely appropriated; and if some of the present projects under contemplation go through, there will be a distinct shortage in this low water flow covering a period of about 2 months during the growing season. So that even for the preservation of the communities that have been established there for a good many years, the additional storage is vitally necessary. Senator KING. And the only source of supply is the San Juan River? Mr. WOEHLKE. The only source of supply is the San Juan River. As Mr. McClure and Governor Hannett stated a while ago, the cost of storage and of distribution to the areas of land which are feasible and economically adapted to cultivation, in that area the land is very expensive so that some sort of additional nonreimbursable contribution is vitally needed for that whole project. Senator CHAVEZ. Is there any other source of water, other than the San Juan River, under the compact? Mr. WOEHLKE. There is none whatsoever. Senator CHAVEZ. So if we expect to derive any benefits whatsoever under the compact, we will have to avail ourselves of legislation such as this that is now pending, provided it is adequately protected and defined? Mr. WOEHLKE. That is correct. Senator KING. May I ask a question? Senator ASHURST. Certainly, Senator King. Senator KING. Are there any Federal lands in the vicinity of the territory which you are describing which might be given to the Navajos as a quid pro quo for the land we have taken from them? Mr. WOEHLKE. There are such lands; yes. Senator KING. Unoccupied? Mr. WOEHLKE. No. There is no unoccupied land in the entire area. Senator CHAVEZ. We have some very fine possibilities for irrigation of land of their own. Senator KING. I was wondering if there were not some lands which were suitable for grazing of sheep or cattle which the Government owned, the title to which had not passed to private ownership, so that the Government, if it were so inclined, would transfer some of the Government lands to the Navajo Indians. Mr. WOEHLKE. It could be done by act of Congress. Senator KING. What I am trying to get at is whether there is any land not occupied, belonging to the Government, which might be utilized by the Navajo Indians for grazing purposes. Mr. WOEHLKE. Senator, all the area in there is being used now, and in most instances it is being overused. Senator HATCH. May I ask a question right there? Senator ASHURST. Certainly, Senator Hatch. Senator HATCH. Mr. Woehlke, even if whatever lands might be available around there were included in the boundary, it would not solve this problem of the Navajo Indians? Mr. WOEHLKE. No. Senator HATCH. Irrigation is about the only way in which to solve that problem? Mr. WOEHLKE. Yes. Senator CHAVEZ. They can do more with 10 or 12 acres of irrigated land than they can with 640 acres of grazing land. Senator MCCARRAN. I would like to ask the witness whether or not this Navajo project-I style it the Navajo project for brevity—is a self-liquidating project in contemplation? Mr. WOEHLKE. It could not be a self-liquidating project. Senator MCCARRAN. That is what I thought. So it is not econom ically a commendable project excepting as it is humanely commendable, is that true? Mr. WOEHLKE. It would be economically commendable, Senator, because unless the additional irrigated area is supplied to the Navajos, they will, sooner or later, become public charges. Senator CHAVEZ. Absolutely dependent, with the probability of rationing. Senator MCCARRAN. I am asking him this question in view of the history of reclamation. Reclamation has always gone forward on the principle that any contemplated project was self-liquidating, was economically feasible. So I am just looking at what you are describing in the light of reclamation in the past. I take it that it would not measure up to that standard? |