had, and from the study that I made of Mr. Sands' report-both our Senators have it-I still believe that that would have been an equitable basis for the distribution of this fund, that is the upper-basin States should have had the $1,000,000 a year instead of the $500,000, considering the benefits that have been definitely pegged down to Arizona, Nevada, and California. As it stands now we have an undivided interest in a fund which will be spent by a Government agency. Whether there will ever be a substantial development in New Mexico out of that fund is problematical.

It has always been our position that whatever New Mexico is to derive out of this should be pegged down like Nevada's rights are pegged down, and California's rights are pegged down. After all, the share we get, compared to the benefits of California, for instance, is trifling. When I say California will receive $100,000,000, that is the minimum. My guess is it is probably somewhere between $130,000,000 to $150,000,000, based on Mr. Sands' report, a large part of which is highly technical, and I am not in a position to discuss the technical details.

Senator CHAVEZ. Governor, may I interrupt you right there? The Mr. Sands you refer to is an engineer of national reputation throughout the United States?

Mr. HANNETT. I understand he has a national reputation. He was selected by Judge Stone and Mr. Tipton, and we four upper-basin States paid them the honorarium that they asked. While I understand they differed widely in some of their findings with California engineers, I have no reason to question the fairness nor the integrity of the California engineers nor the good faith or the integrity of Mr. Sands. Perhaps somewhere between the figures of each lies the truth. I do not know; I am not an engineer.

I think that covers what I desire to say, unless there are some questions.

Senator CHAVEZ. Governor, you mentioned that, under the Sands report, $1,000,000 a year instead of $500,000 a year would appear more equitable to the upper-basin States.

Mr. HANNETT. That was the thought and the belief of all four upper-basin States at the Phoenix meeting.

Senator CHAVEZ. And you further contend, as a representative of the New Mexico water interests, that whatever amount it might be should be set up definitely in the legislation so that New Mexico may know just exactly what it is going to get?

Mr. HANNETT. That has always been our hope.

Senator CHAVEZ. Whether it is part of the $500,000, or part of the $1,000,000?

Mr. HANNETT. Be it ever so small, we think we ought to know what it is, and that we are going to get it.

Senator CHAVEZ. And that the legislation should contain wording, or be clarified to such an extent that the New Mexico water authorities could decide as to what to do with their little mite?

Mr. HANNETT. That is exactly right.

Senator CHAVEZ. Now, what particular projects, if any, did the New Mexico authorities have in mind with reference to this legislation?

Mr. HANNETT. We have three projects in mind: The Navajo Indian Tribe in San Juan County, an area that can be developed; there

is a small area along the San Juan River in San Juan County, and some development on the Animas and La Plata. The project that we feel is of the greatest importance to the State of New Mexico is what is generally known as the San Juan-Chama diversion.

Senator CHAVEZ. Is there any source of water supply there by which New Mexico can avail itself of any rights it might have under the compact outside of the San Juan?

Mr. HANNETT. No.

Senator CHAVEZ. That is the only one?
Mr. HANNETT. Yes.

Senator HATCH. That is the San Juan-Chama diversion?
Mr. HANNETT. Yes.

Senator CHAVEZ. What is the situation, Governor, with reference to the water supply in the Rio Grande now between, say, the boundary of Texas on the south and the boundary of Colorado on the north?

Mr. HANNETT. The water supply has been inadequate. Texas sued the State of New Mexico. We had a long and expensive litigation. It has been inadequate at times. We finally entered into a compact, and during the negotiations for this compact the States of Texas, Colorado, and New Mexico entered into an agreement for a joint investigation. A large sum of money was spent by the States and the Federal Government on what is known as the joint Rio Grande investigation. New Mexico asked that the feasibility and practicability of the San Juan diversion and of the transmountain diversion into the Rio Grande be investigated, and a large sum of money was devoted out of that sum to this investigation, and it was found to be feasible and practical.

Mr. Debler, of the Reclamation Bureau, at a meeting held by the upper four basin States at Green River, Wyo., stated that its feasibility had been established, and that practically all of the engineering was completed except the final details for contractors' bids, and so forth, and obtaining the right-of-way.

Senator CHAVEZ. Governor Hannett, if I lead you on, you will understand it is not because we want to violate the rules of the court. Over here we are very informal, and it is only to refresh your memory on certain matters. A chart was introduced at the hearings here last week by Judge Stone which included what purported to be the project that Mr. Debler had in mind at the time that you had the gathering a Phoenix, wherein the San Juan-Chama diversion was not included. Have the New Mexico authorities at all times been insisting on this project being taken care of?

Mr. HANNETT. Absolutely. It is our principal stake in the Colorado River.

Senator HATCH. Governor, you have spoken about the interest of New Mexico and that it should be pegged out. Is that interest different from the other upper basin States? If so, explain it for the record.

Mr. HANNETT. Well, in a way it is. Colorado has some thirty-odd projects, I believe, and the other States have numerous projects. We have two very small projects and one major project. Our major project is such that unless we have assistance from some source other than the ordinary course of placing the burden on the landowner, in all probability our hope in this respect, and our desire will not be

fulfilled, and the transmountain diversion will probably be a long time coming.

Senator HATCH. Well, now, as a matter of fact there must be some outside financing of that project?

Mr. HANNETT. Yes.

Senator HATCH. It can be placed in there with some outside financing?

Mr. HANNETT. No question about that.

Senator HATCH. This is the only chance, as far as any of us know, to get any funds for that purpose, is it?

Mr. HANNETT. That is right. That is what we have got in mind. I think it is important to Texas, too. It is important from an international standpoint, because of the ultimate shortage of water that is going to follow in the Elephant Butte district and the Juarez area in Mexico.

Senator HATCH. Under the treaty obligations with Mexico?

Mr. HANNETT. The treaty obligations with Mexico. They have got the All-American Canal there. You are going to hear reverberations when they are going to start to hold the Republic of Mexico down to 30,000 acre-feet per year.

Senator CHAVEZ. Along those lines, of course, we all understand that the water you seek creates a right in the Western States. A suggestion has been made at the hearings here that one of the reasons for this bill is that possibly Mexico might appropriate some of the waters of the Colorado in the basin. Is not that the same position we take, that unless we avail ourselves of our rights now and within the near future make use of some of that water, we might possibly lose out to the lower basin States or the Government of Mexico? Mr. HANNETT. That is right.

Senator CHAVEZ. I am going to hand you, Governor Hannett, a proposed amendment that I prepared. It might not be in the correct wording, but I want you to look at it and see whether it might cover more or less your views on this.

Mr. HANNETT. I do not like to read it without giving it some study. I would like to have a few minutes' time to consider it.

Senator CHAVEZ. Can we read it for the benefit of the Senators here? Of course, if it has to be changed it can be changed.

Senator ASHURST. Certainly. If you will, Mr. Clerk, you may read the amendment, please.

The clerk [reading]:

Amendment. On page 6, line 20, after the word "factors" and before the period, insert a colon and the following: "Provided, That any moneys appropriated pursuant to the authorizations contained in this subsection shall be available for (1) the completion by the Bureau of Reclamation of a survey of the transmountain diversion project on the San Juan River in the State of New Mexico and (2) for the construction of such project; and such project shall be designed so as to adequately provide for the irrigation needs of San Juan County, New Mexico, including those of the Navajo Tribe of Indians; and, after providing for such needs, any water from such project remaining available for use shall be used as the State of New Mexico may determine."

Mr. HANNETT. I think that covers it.

Senator MCCARRAN. Have you appropriations filed pursuant to a State law that would meet this amendment? Mr. HANNETT. What do you mean?

Senator MCCARRAN. Has the State of New Mexico ever attempted to exercise its right in the way of appropriating water?

Mr. HANNETT. No. We have determined upon the Colorado River compact. We have an undivided interest in the 7,500,000 acre-feet of water.

Senator MCCARRAN. But prior to the compact, what, if any, steps were taken by the State of New Mexico to appropriate the waters of the natural flow of the Colorado River?

Mr. HANNETT. I do not think any State has, including the State of New Mexico.

Senator MCCARRAN. You have in the State of New Mexico, I take it, as in other western States, the law that prior appropriation is a prior right. Then I take it you have your statute providing for the filing of appropriations under your State engineer administration, whatever it may be called.

Mr. HANNETT. That is right.

Senator MCCARRAN. I think that is true, is it not, Governor?
Mr. HANNETT. That is true.

Senator MCCARRAN. Now, do I understand, Governor, from your statement made to the committee here, that at the time of the adjournment of the Committee of Sixteen, the State of New Mexico and some other State refused to concur in the agreement?

Mr. HANNETT. In the meeting of the four upper basin States, that broke up with Utah and Colorado approving, Wyoming and New Mexico disapproving.

Senator MCCARRAN. Then you met at a later hour and said while you did not approve it, you would not oppose it. Is that my understanding of it?

Mr. HANNETT. That is right. While we did not approve it, we were not going to oppose it, and we were not attempting to answer for or bind the hands of either of our Senators or Congressmen.

Senator MCCARRAN. Is that your attitude now?

Mr. HANNETT. That is our attitude now. We feel that the law is inequitable, just as we felt then, but we are not here opposing, we are here explaining our position.

Senator CHAVEZ. And you think that modifications to clarify the rights of the State of New Mexico should be included in the bill?

Mr. HANNETT. I think they should be included in the bill, and I think that meets the objection that Mr. McClure and I have had to the legislation.

Senator MCCARRAN. Under the existing Boulder Canyon Act, do you recall how long it would be before the State of New Mexico would receive any money at all?

Mr. HANNETT. I think it would be in the most remote future, and I think likewise, under the bill as it stands now, it would be equally

remote.

Senator CHAVEZ. Governor Hannett, you stated in answer to Senator McCarran that we had some interest in some 7,500,000 acre-feet. Mr. HANNETT. We had an undivided interest, just exactly as Colorado, Utah, and Wyoming have.

Senator CHAVEZ. The statement was made last week that all the possible water we could get out of the San Juan would be something like 200,000 acre-feet.

Mr. HANNETT. The San Juan diversion would give us 350,000 acrefeet.

Senator CHAVEZ. 350,000?

Mr. HANNETT. Yes.

Senator CHAVEZ. Which would be a small amount considering our so-called equitable interest in the 7,500,000 acre-feet?

Mr. HANNETT. That is correct.

Senator CHAVEZ. The rest of the waters of the San Juan would still flow down into the Colorado and be of beneficial use, both at the dam and for other purposes below the dam?

Mr. HANNETT. Yes. There is a precedent for transmountain diversion. Colorado is diverting from the Colorado River in the Big Thompson, I think substantially 350,000 acre-feet.

Senator CHAVEZ. Do you want to ask him any questions?
Senator ASHURST. No. Thank you, Governor.
Senator McCarran, are there any further questions?
Senator McCARRAN. Not of the Governor.

Senator ASHURST. Your next witness, Senator Chavez,
Senator CHAVEZ. Mr. McClure, our State engineer.

STATEMENT OF THOMAS M. McCLURE, STATE ENGINEER OF NEW MEXICO

Senator ASHURST. Give your name, your address, and occupation for the record, please.

Mr. McCLURE. Thomas M. McClure. State engineer. Secretary of the Interstate Streams Commission. Santa Fe, N. Mex.

Senator CHAVEZ. What part, Mr. McClure, have you taken in the development of the proposed legislation?

Mr. McCLURE. I have attended all meetings that have taken place on the Colorado River matters since 1933, as State engineer, and representative of New Mexico.

I would like to go into just a little history, if I may, Senator, in regard to the unique position that the San Juan River has in relation. to the other tributaries of the Colorado.

Senator MCCARRAN. May I ask a preliminary question?

Senator CHAVEZ. Certainly.

Senator MCCARRAN. How long have you been State engineer?
Mr. McCLURE. Seven years.

Senator MCCARRAN. Prior to that were you connected with that bureau?

Mr. MCCLURE. I was connected with the State on highway work, but not in the hydraulic end.

Our interest in the San Juan is due to the fact that San Juan is the largest water-producing stream in New Mexico. Some three-fifths of all the water of the streams in New Mexico flow through the San Juan River. It is also the least used. The San Juan flows out of New Mexico into Utah through a barren space for which, up to the present time, no feasible use has been developed, in which the waters of the stream after leaving New Mexico can be used.

Of the 7,500,000 acre-feet allotted to the upper basin under the Colorado River compact, we have a mean annual flow leaving New Mexico of approximately 2,500,000 acre-feet per year.

Senator ASHURST. Out of the San Juan?

Mr. McCLURE. Out of the San Juan; yes, sir. That water is unavailable for any other uses except in the Boulder Canyon project

236525-40-8