H. OF R. Doctrine of Libels. MAY, 1809. sion is ended, I shall satisfy the House that I am at least as full of projects as they could have wished me to be. understand the distinction which I took, said Mr. T., and remark the obvious difference which might result from the mode in which the inquiry was to be conducted. If, after a certain mode, it might lead to this result: that the President of the United States had instructed the District Attorney to institute criminal prosecutions under the English common law doctrine against a citizen for the purpose of oppression, while the defendant was prevented from giving in evidence the truth of his words or writings. In such a case, I have no hesitation in saying that I would consider the President giving such an order as not only highly censurable, but as meriting an impeachment, as guilty of high crime and misdemeanor. But if a different result should convince me that, so far from being directed by the President of the United States, the prosecutions were made by the mere voluntary motion of the District Attorney, the criminality would not rest with the President of the United States, but with the District Attorney; but more especially if not only unauthorized but unsanctioned. subject somewhere is one thing; but that the General Government should possess that power, which, however inherent in an integral government, is denied to that government by the Con- Mr. TROUP said that the gentleman from Virgistitution, is another thing. It was a weapon nia was wholly mistaken in his ideas, for he, Mr. wielded with great force against us at the time of T., was no less friendly to the motion than the the discussion on the sedition law, that men who gentleman from Virginia himself; and, as to motold seditious lies ought to be liable to punish- tives, he had no hesitation in declaring that he ment; and, I suppose, sir, the difference was not believed those of the gentleman to be pure and perceived between the men who wrote libels be-worthy as those of any man, and that the gentleing liable to punishment, and their being subject man was utterly incapable of making a dishonest to punishment in the Federal courts. The ques-attack on any man. But I wish the gentleman to tion was not whether there should not be a punishment for libels, but whether the Government of the United States had or could have, agreeably to the Constitution, any law of libel. Mr. R. asked of the House, if it was not now right to reform the abuses which had taken place, to set about the work. An attempt had been made in the other House, and failed, like an attempt to promote economy and enforce accountability. You know very well, said Mr. R., that there were many of us, and I was one, who thought that, at the commencement of Mr. Jefferson's administration, it would be proper for us to pass a sort of declaratory act on the subject of the sedition law, something analogous to Mr. Fox's celebrated declaratory bill on the subject of libels, which did not so much enact a new law as declare that Lord Mansfield's law was not law-but, on this subject, as well the reduction of the Army below its then standard, as on some others, I had the honor (or dishonor as some might esteem it) to be in the minority. I had thought that we ought to have returned the fines of all those who suffered under the law; that we should have followed the example of that precedent which rescinded all the resolutions in relation to the Middlesex election; that we should have made whole, as far as in our power, the persons who came under the lash of that law. But, you know that it was said that we came in as reformers; that we should not do too much; that we should go on Mr. PITKIN said he rose not to enter into the by little and little; that we should fire minute- discussion, but to state a fact which had not been guns, I think was the expression; which produced mentioned. Reference has been made to the no other effect, that I ever found, than the keep-grand jury and the district attorney, said Mr. P., ing up a spirit of irritation, which might have been, and ought to have been long ago allayed. I would have acted in that case, as, I presume, the master of a family would act if offended by his children; I would first have punished, and then forgot-and it is in this manner alone that a State or family can be kept in due subjection to the father of that State or family, without, at the same time, having their confidence impaired. But if the father will not punish, but will continue to remember the fault, he alienates the child. If he will continue to twit him in the teeth with his wrong doings, he must count upon losing his confidence. It is better to give him his due, and then forget that he has offended, and reinstate him in his affections. I am sorry to have said so much, sir, but I owed it to myself. Among the different charges which have been made against me, one was that I had no projects-no projects, I think, was the term. I trust that, before the ses Mr. RANDOLPH observed that he had not said that he suspected this or that man. If his own impression was worth anything, he did not believe that any direction on this subject had been given by the late President of the United States. But this was his mere belief; and it was impossible to say where the blame rested. and the gentleman from Massachusetts seems to suppose that the district attorney is the mere agent of the grand jury. Whatever is the law on this point is totally immaterial at present; the gentleman, however, is mistaken as to the origin of these suits. I understand the fact to have been that the district judge, who was appointed under the late Administration, was sole acting judge in the court in consequence of the absence of the other judge. In his charge to the grand jury he particularly called their attention to libellous publications against the Government of the United States. That charge was printed in one of the newspapers of that State; in that one, I believe, in which the laws of the United States are printed. In consequence of what was delivered to the grand jury, they took the subject into consideration and made the presentments. I merely state this as the fact. A motion was now made by Mr. GHOLSON to MAY, 1809. President's Message. H. OF R. year one thousand eight hundred and eight; and that the committee have leave to report by bill, or otherwise. insert the word "criminal" before the word "prosecutions" in the resolution, which produced a desultory debate of more than an hour on the powers of the Federal and State courts, turning Mr. Love presented a petition of sundry inchiefly on the construction of the words of the habitants of the City of Washington, praying that first part of the 2d section of the 3d article of the a company be incorporated for the purpose of Constitution of the United States. Messrs. J. G. opening a turnpike road from the City of WashJACKSON, RANDOLPH, GHOLSON, LOVE, and NEL-ington to the boundary of the District of ColumSON, partook of the debate; in the course of which Mr. TALLMADGE took occasion to quote the journals, to show that several motions on the subject of those prosecutions had been made in this House in January, 1807; and he observed, that after this, how any gentleman in public life could Mr. McKIм presented a memorial of the manto this day have remained ignorant of the fact, was ufacturers of hats in the city of Baltimore, to the to him astonishing. He expressed himself highly like effect, with a memorial of the manufacturers pleased that this subject was at length taken up. of hats in Fredericktown, presented on the twenand hoped that no delay would obstruct an in-ty-fifth instant.-Referred to the Committee of quiry or prevent the passage of a law for the pro- Commerce and Manufactures. tection of the citizen in future. Mr. GHOLSON withdrew his motion to insert the word "criminal;" and the motion was agreed to unanimously, by yeas and nays, 124 voting in the affirmative. Mr. RANDOLPH, Mr. HOLLAND, Mr. DANA, Mr. HOWARD, and Mr. TRACY, were appointed a committee, pursuant to the said resolution. Mr. RANDOLPH then laid on the table the following resolution: Resolved, That provision ought to be made, by law, to secure the right to an impartial jury, in all cases, civil and criminal, maintained in the courts of the United States. FRIDAY, May 26. Another member to wit: ROBERT WEAKLEY, from Tennessee, appeared, produced his credentials, was qualified, and took his seat. The SPEAKER laid before the House a letter from the Governor of the State of Virginia, enclosing the certificate of the election of JOHN G. JACKSON to serve as one of the Representatives for that State in the Eleventh Congress of the United States; which were read, and referred to the Committee of Elections. On motion of Mr. MORROW, the Committee on the Public Lands were directed to inquire what further provision is necessary to be made for the disposal of the public lands in the Mississippi Territory, ceded by the Cherokees and Chickasaws; and that they report by bill or otherwise. On motion of Mr. MORROW, Resolved, That the Committee on Public Lands be instructed to inquire into the expediency of authorizing the appointment of an agent, whose duty it shall be to appear before the Board of Commissioners for adjusting the claims to land in the District of Kaskaskia, in behalf of the United States, to investigate the claims for lands, and to oppose all such as may appear to be fraudulent and unfounded; and, also. to inquire whether any, and, if any, what, additional compensation ought to be allowed the said Commissioners and their Clerk, for services rendered in the bia, so as to communicate with a turnpike road proposed to be open from the said boundary to the city of Baltimore, in the State of Maryland.Referred to the Committee for the District of Columbia. On motion of Mr. VAN HORN, the Committee for the District of Columbia were instructed to inquire what amendments are necessary in the act concerning the District of Columbia. On motion of Mr. RANDOLPH, Ordered, That the Committee of the whole House on the state of the Union, to whom was committed on the twenty-fourth instant, a resolution proposed by Mr. RANDOLPH for immediately disbanding the troops raised by virtue of "An act to raise, for a limited time, an additional military force," and for applying any balance of appropriation remaining unexpended in relation to the same, and any unexpended balance of appropriation for gunboats, towards arming and equipping the whole body of the militia of the United States, be discharged from the consideration thereof; and that the same be referred to the committee last appointed. PRESIDENT'S MESSAGE. The House then resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole on the state of the Union; and, after some time spent therein, the Committee rose and reported the following: 1. Resolved, That so much of the Message of the President of the United States as respects our relations with foreign nations, be referred to a select committee. 2. Resolved, That so much of the Message of the President of the United States as relates to a revision of our commercial laws, for the purpose of protecting and fostering the manufactures of the United States, be referred to the Committee of Commerce and Manufactures. President of the United States as relates to the modi3. Resolved, That so much of the Message of the fications of the Military and Naval Establishments of the United States, be referred to a select committee. 4. Resolved, That so much of the Message from the President of the United States as relates to the fortification of our seaport towns, be referred to a select committee. 5. Resolved, That so much of the Message from the President of the United States as relates to the revenue and expenditures of the United States, be referred to the Committee of Ways and Means. The House proceeded to consider the said reso Mr. BURWELL, Mr. KEY, Mr. KENNEDY, Mr. GEORGE SMITH, Mr. PETER B. PORTER, Mr. GARDNER, and Mr. WILLIAM CHAMBERLIN, were appointed a committee, pursuant to the fourth resolution. On motion of Mr. RANDOLPH, MAY, 1809. VOTE OF APPROBATION. Mr. RANDOLPH said that for the last eight years or thereabouts an alteration had taken place in the manner of doing business at the commencement of each session of Congress. He said he recollected when the first Congress under the Administration of Mr. Jefferson had met at this place, instead of Congress being opened as heretofore by the President in person and by a speech, a note in these words had been received by the Speaker, enclosing a Message from the President: "DECEMBER 8, 1801. "SIR: The circumstances under which we find our selves at this place rendering inconvenient the mode heretofore practised, of making by personal address the first communications between the Legislative and Executive branches, I have adopted that by Message, as used on all subsequent occasions through the session. Ordered, That the committee this day ap- | In doing this I have had a principal regard to the conpointed on so much of the Message of the Pres-venience of the Legislature, to the economy of their ident of the United States as relates to the modifi- time, to their relief from the embarrassment of immecations of the Military and Naval Establishments diate answers on subjects not yet fully before them, and of the United States, be discharged from the conto the benefits thence resulting to the public affairs. sideration of that part of the subject referred to Trusting that a procedure founded in these motives them which relates to the modifications of the will meet their approbation, I beg leave through you, Military Establishment; and that the same be sir, to communicate the enclosed Message," &c. referred to Mr. NELSON, Mr. DAWSON, Mr. CHAMPION, Mr. LYON, Mr. TAYLOR, Mr. LIVERMORE, and Mr. FRANKLIN, to consider and report thereon. On motion of Mr. J. G. JACKSON, the letter and report yesterday received from the Secretary of the Navy were referred to the committee this day appointed on so much of the Message from the President of the United States as relates to the Military and Naval Establishments. GUNBOATS. Mr. PITKIN observed that by a report received yesterday from the Navy Department, the House were informed of the state and condition of most of the frigates and other armed vessels of the United States. The House had heretofore, from calls made on the Secretary of the Navy, information laid before them of the expense of building and repairing these frigates and other armed vessels; but never, to his recollection, had any statement from the Department of the expense of building the gunboats, or any account of their actual expense while in service, been laid before them. Various estimates had been made of their expense while in service, but the House never had before them any statement of the actual expense. For the purpose of obtaining this information, he asked leave to move SO To It is unnecessary, I believe, (said Mr. R.) to state that the hint contained in the Message that no answer was to be expected, was taken by the House; and from that day no answers have been given to the Messages of the President at the opening of Congress. It would ill become me, sir, who so highly approved then, and who highly approve now the change introduced by communicating to the two Houses by message instead of by speech, to say anything that might imply a disapprobation of it. I like it, sir. tell the truth, the style of communicating by speech was more in the style of the opening of the British Parliament by the King. I therefore_like the mode of communication by message. But I am not so clear, though we were then half-right, that not mean to give a definite opinion. we were wholly right; though on this subject I do No man can turn over the journals of the first six Congresses of the United States without being sickened, fairly sickened with the adulation often replied by the Houses of Congress to the President's communication. But nevertheless the answer to an address, although that answer might finally contain the most exceptionable passages, was in fact the greatest opportunity which the opposition to the measures of the Administration had of canvassing and sifting its measures; and, in my mind, whatever goes to take away this opportunity, goes so far to narrow down the rights of the minority or opposition, commonly so called, and in fact to enlarge the rights of the majority and the Admin "That the Secretary of the Navy be directed to lay before the House a statement of the number of gunboats which have been built, and the expense of build-istration party so called; and I beg leave not to ing the same; also of the number employed in actual service, the time they have been employed, and their expense while in actual service." This motion, after some conversation between Messrs. DAWSON, Dana, PITKIN, LYON, BACON, and W. ALSTON, was agreed to without a division. be understood as speaking of the state of parties at this time, but of that which has always existed. This opportunity of discussion of the answer to an address, however exceptionable the address might be when it had received the last seasoning for the Presidential palate, did afford the best opportunity to take a review of the measures of the Administration, to canvass them fully and fairly, without there being any question raised whether the gentlemen was in order or not; and I believe the time spent in canvassing the answer to a speech was at least as well spent as a great deal that we have expended since we discontinued the practice. I do not say that any answer is proper or ought to be given; but I do believe that when this House goes into a Committee of the Whole on the state of the Union, it is for purposes a little more elevated than to dissect the Message of the President of the United States, or to strip it up and transfer it to select and standing committees. If that be the whole object of going into a Committee of the Whole on the state of the Union, I can see no reason for having any such committee, nor why the Message should not be taken in the first instance, dissected by the knife of the operator most in the fashion of the day, and referred to different committees. And it has a tendency to cast a sort of ridicule on our proceedings, when this august assembly resolves itself into a Committee of the Whole on the state of the Union, and resolves that the Message shall be referred to such and such committees; and would induce shallow observers to believe that in fact there is little or no use for such a committee. But whatever may be my opinion on the subject of opening the two Houses by message, I do think that there are occasions, and that this is one, on which it behooves this assembly to express its opinion on the state of public affairs. I will not recall to your recollection, sir, because perhaps, and most probably it passed over your mind without making any impression, that sometime during the last session of Congress, I stated that if the gentleman in whose hand the reins of Government were about to be placed did not even tolerably perform the task assigned to him, some allowance ought to be made for the state in which he found the nation. And, sir, when I see the situation of the country so materially changed for the better, am I and is this House to sit still and regard it but as newspaper talk of the day, and express no opinion on it? And what is our opinion? It is either in approbation or disapprobation of the conduct of the Executive. In my opinion it is due to the Executive that he have an expression of sentiment on this subject. In the part of the country in which I live, dinners have been given, feasts have been held, and the song and toast have passed round in commemoration of the event: and is this House to be insensible, and to leave the President of the United States in ignorance or doubt whether his conduct has or has not received the sanction of their approbation? Or is he to get that information from inofficial sources? I hope not. I hope he will get it from ourselves. I therefore move you "That the promptitude and frankness with which the President of the United States has met the overtures of the Government of Great Britain, towards the restoration of harmony and free commercial intercourse between the two nations, meets the approbation of this House." Mr. FINDLEY said that this proposition contemplated a novelty in the legislative proceedings of H. OF R. this country. Where would it end if the House were now to make a solemn resolution approving of the conduct of the President? The answer returned to the speech of the King in monarchical Governments committed the House making it to all that was contained in it. The practice in this country had been long considered an evil; indeed he thought he could show by the journals one instance in which the discussion of a single section in an auswer occupied the House fourteen or fifteen days. It was a practice, too, which introduced at the very opening of the session all that irritation that commonly arose in the course of a session. Mr. F. said he supposed there was not a member in the House but did approve of the President's exercise of the authority vested in him. He presumed that they approved equally also of the same offer heretofore made to the Court of London. If the House were to approbate the conduct of one President, they must approbate that of others; and the conduct of the different Administrations under the Constitution might be brought into view. Mr. F. was totally against this motion, or any other of the kind. Mr. DANA said that at the present time he should certainly not be for adopting the resolution. The adopting it at this time would certainly not comport with the object professed by the mover, which he had understood to be, to present a question on which there might be a general view of the conduct of the Executive in relation to the object in question. If the object was to bring up the question in a regular form, that gentlemen might express themselves fully in relation to our affairs, it was very proper that this subject should be discussed in Committee of the Whole on the state of the Union. For himself, Mr. D. said that he thought the mode of answering speeches might do very well in such a Government as this, and whatever might be said of economy of time, by an attention to the actual expense it would be found that in fact very little time was lost by it. At the last session of Congress a committee had reported a resolution to which there was but two dissentients; the discussion occupied nearly three weeks. All agreed as to the result, but gentlemen combated each other's arguments. And undoubtedly, Mr. D. said, the rapidity with which the Message was shot through a Committee of the Whole, was rather a farcical piece of businessand, indeed, it was not without some little surprise that, when he had come to the House this morning, he found the whole subject disposed of, If he had a convenient opportunity, Mr. D. said, he should have no objection to express some of his opinions on points in the conduct of the Administration. Yet he was not certain that an abstract proposition of this kind was a desirable thing to be adopted; although he admitted that it was desirable that there should be some mode of expressing an opinion on the measures adopted by the Executive during the recess, without being narrowed in the discussion by the rules of order. Mr. W. ALSTON said, that when a resolution like the one proposed was presented to him, the substance of which met his approbation, if he was H. OF R. Vote of Approbation. MAY, 1809. He could not have believed that this motion would have been rejected by the House, though he said he had certainly calculated on its being opposed by those who condemned the promptitude and frankness with which the President had proceeded to restore, as far as depended on him, the intercourse between the two nations. It is this part of the conduct of the President of the United States, said Mr. R., on which I mean to give an opinion-" By the President of the United States, a proclamation"-and in that procla compelled to vote directly upon it, he would rather vote for it than against it. But if it were the object to bring before the House a discussion upon the Message of the President, and to return an answer to his Excellency's most gracious Message, he should certainly be opposed to it. If ever there had been one particular part of the conduct of the former Administration which had met the approbation of the Republicans of this country generally, it was the discontinuance of this practice. The result of the alteration was, that although more was done during the sessions of the Repub-mation, in my opinion, he has deserved well of lican Congresses, they terminated them three or four weeks sooner than ever had been done before. As to the opportunity which the answers afforded for debate, could any one say that sufficient latitude had not been taken in debate? Had not gentlemen even called others by name, and introduced every subject on any question? Mr. A. said he was pleased with what had been done, and he could not vote that he was not pleased; but he was certainly opposed to entering into a full discussion, at the opening of each session, of everything which was to come under the consideration of the House. If they were to take up this resolution, they might as well take some abstract act of Mr. Adams's, he being still living, and discuss his political life. WASHINGTON, at least he hoped, having departed from us, would be permitted to rest in peace. his country. I ask the gentleman from Pennsylvania, (Mr. FINDLEY,) if he is near enough to hear me in this vast room, when I have proposed bringing in review the whole measures of former Administrations; when have I proposed an answer to an address to the two Houses? I have proposed no such thing, sir, although my motion is nearly tantamount to it; because it so happens that the only act of which we have any know!edge, except the laying up the gunboats in dry dock, which I also most cordially approbate, is this very thing. Now, I have not the slightest objection, if the gentleman chooses, that the honorable and worthy gentleman from Massachusetts should insist on a venire on the conduct of any former President of the United States, but I beg myself to be excused from serving on it. As an unqualified juror, I choose to except myself; for, really, as to one of those Presidents, his career does not yet seem to be finished. It would seem as if he meditated another batch of midnight judges, and another midnight retreat from the Capitol. I do, therefore, except to myself as a juror as to him or any other President. De mortuis nil nisi bonum. Agreed, sir. Let the good that men do live after them, and the evil be interred in their graves. But, I would ask the gentleman from Connecticut, and the gentleman from Pennsylvania, also, if this be one of their abstract propositions? How abstract, I pray you? Or, if it be one of those unmeaning propositions, the discussion of which could answer no good to this House? It would be idle in us now to be trying Mr. Adams on the merits of the sedition law, the eight per cent. loans, or any other such act. It would answer no purpose; and it would be equally idle and futile to pass any opinion on the merits or demerits of the first four or last four years of the late Administration, for this plain reason, the question bolts upon you, cui bono? What earthly good can result from Mr. RANDOLPH said that as an indefinite post-it? But is that the case in relation to the Execponement was considered as tantamount to a re-utive, on whose future dispositions rest the best jection-for it prevents a renewal of the subject interests of this nation? Is that a mere idle disduring the session, and a rejection does nothing cussion? And is it come to this? Is this House more, as the House had heretofore had a woful so sunk in the Executive opinion (I trust not, sir; experience in the case of certain very pertina- I abhor the idea,) that its approbation of a great cious petitioners; and, as he was afraid, they course of national policy is to pass for nothing; would again have from a certain body of petition- is to have no influence on the conduct of the Exers, who, he presumed, had not entirely given up ecutive of the United States? This, sir, is taking their hopes of quartering themselves on the pub-higher doctrine than was ever advanced by those lic property-an indefinite postponement, then, who wished to see the President open Parliament being equivalent to a rejection, he certainly by a speech from the throne. It is taking higher was opposed to the rejection of his own motion. ground than the Minister of that country from Mr. BACON said, that with other gentlemen, he could not but regret that this proposition had been brought forward. If he were brought to vote upon it, he need not tell the House that he should cordially vote for it; but it was really one of the last observations which he had expected to have heard from any gentleman that we wanted field for debate. He had thought that the grievance was the other way; that the cause of complaint was, that they consumed too much time in debate. He said he should certainly vote for the resolution, were it brought to a direct vote; but, for the purpose of placing before the House the view of the subject which he entertained, he should take the liberty to move an amendment to it, and then move to refer it to a Committee of the Whole. The amendment was in these words, proposed to be added to the motion :-"And furnishes an ad'ditional proof of the spirit of accommodation on the part of the Government of the United States, 'which has at no time been intermitted." Mr. J. G. JACKSON moved that the whole subject be postponed indefinitely. |