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actual employment of a considerable number of our people through another year will relate very largely to such programs as these. This is a practical problem because of the fact that it provides a kind of activity the results of which are much needed in the development of our social life and in the development of our improved standards of living.

I am told that there is a very great potential market for the kind of repairs and renovation which are contemplated in these programs. When I say a potential market, I recognize of course, that the peak of the market will not be reached until people have wages and income flowing to them again. There are many people who would like to put a heating plant in their houses, who will not do so until they themselves have regular and steady wages.

Senator COUZENS. You heard me ask Mr. Eccles if he could amplify the field that was to use these credit facilities. Have you any information to amplify Mr. Eccles' answer to that question?

Secretary PERKINS. I am afraid I did not hear his answer very completely. There was a trolley car passing by at the time. The field, as I understand it, is almost unlimited. It is the repair and renovation, first, of homes, and later of such other business enterprises as need this kind of stimulation, but principally homes and housing

Senator COUZENS. What particular group of our citizens will avail themselves of these borrowing facilities!

Secretary PERKINS. I suppose the home owners will begin-

Senator COUZENS. But what is the home owner's source of income to pay off these debts, and what particular group of home owners will avail themselves of these borrowing facilities? Mr. Eccles testified that it would not include the 10 million estimated unemployed. I asked him the question whether it would include those who were working 2 or 3 days a week, and he did not seem to know. I wondered if your studies indicated just what activities these groups would be engaged in to justify the loans, and how they would be proposed to be repaid.

Secretary PERKINS. I have not gone at all into the matter of the loans or how they will be granted, or the classes of people who will find these loans accessible.

Senator COUZENS. You do not know the field at all. Secretary PERKINS. I do not know the field, but I am told by those who know that field that there is a greąt potential market for this kind of thing. Certainly there is a great lack of facilities in many homes.

Senator BARKLEY. The field would be broadened as men go back to work under any assurance of permanency.

Secretary PERKINS. Even for brief periods of time. There are many homes, of course, where the roofs are leaking and the chimneys are out of order.

Senator BARKLEY. Many home owners who are without work may have had a little savings upon which they have been subsisting. If they got work for a temporary period—for 6 months, say—they might be able to put on a new roof or paint the house or something like that.

Senator COUZENS. Yes; but they would not be able to pay off the debt. I recognize what the Senator says so far as current income is concerned, but I am still stalled up against a stone wall as to the stability of the income of these persons who are expected to pay off these $200 to $2,000 loans. The mere temporary employment afforded by this modernization will not insure the worker any stability of income adequate to pay off these loans, even though he is inclined to borrow.

Secretary PERKINS. I realize that that is a very valid doubt, Senator, and I think it ought to be discussed by others than myself. However, I do feel that it is worth pointing out that such market as we have—and we have developed a very considerable internal market in American life in the last year, as is shown by the retail sales reported by department stores, chain stores, and mail-order houses, who report a very great increase in sales such market as we have has been built up largely by stimulated increments to individual incomes due to temporary reemployment, partial reemployment, and small increments of income going to our farmers. It seems to be quite clear that that has at once translated itself into purchasing power. They have spent, in other words, for the necessities of life, the moneys that they got in the pay envelop and in the farm allotments, and the result has been an internal market which has been sufficient to support, right up to this time, this very considerable increase in manufacturing which we have seen in 1 year. That in itself, I think, is an indication of what we might expect if we could put another million men to work at some type of opportunity which gives them employment for even a few months. A A very considerable part of that will go back into the market at once, and they themselves will be a part of the cause for painting houses, mending chimneys, repairing roofs, putting in new heating plants, and all that sort of thing.

Senator KEAN. Yes; but is it not true that on the 1st of January last year there was not a storekeeper that had anything in his store at all, and therefore when he had to order stuff, and when he began to order stuff, he found everybody else was ordering stuff, and that these notes or credits came due in August, and that he had lot of goods ordered, and he had some difficulty in financing them in August. There was a little slump in August. But still the business of today is not what it was last August.

Secretary PERKINS. The business of today, in retail sales, is greater than it was last August.

Senator KEAN. Is it?

Secretary PERKINS. Yes. It has been going up the last few months. There has been a continual increase.

Senator KEAN. There was quite a drop after August.

Secretary PERKINS. There was a short period there where there was a slight slump, because, apparently, of a peculiar price situation that developed a little ahead of the total wage levels; but since that time a very considerable number of the people who went to work are still at work, and with every month that they are at work their ability to spend largely continued, and we have had 3 months more of increased employment.

Senator BYRNES. Would you be_impressed with this idea of “ keeping up with the Joneses”? For instance, if Mrs. Jones improves her home, Mrs. Smith, in the next house, would desire to do

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on the other foot. I agree with you. I think, if this modernization campaign can produce $1,000,000,000 of work, the Government will not lose, no matter how you figure it out, more than $50,000.

Senator BARKLEY. Even if it lost the entire $200,000,000 capital, it would be a profitable investment. We have put $3,300,000,000 into Public Works. We have put $400,000,000 plus $900,000,000 more into the C.W.A., which I think was a fine conception, but the Government does not get any of that back directly. It comes out of the Treasury and does not return. Compared to the actual amount of money that may possibly go out of the Treasury under this plan, it seems to me that we have gone further in behalf of more different kinds of occupations and different people than anything we have undertaken.

Mr. HOPKINS. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. In other words, this is an effort to supply the credit of the Government instead of the cash of the Government in furthering a great constructive program.

Mr. HOPKINS. Yes. I do not think it takes a great amount of the credit. It takes some. We are not going to get these people to work unless we can get some of this private money out. It is not going to be done by direct expenditures of the Government.

The CHAIRMAN. What is your next point?

Mr. HOPKINS. The importance of getting the heavy industries moving and the importance of getting private funds into this employment picture in contradistinction to the Government's funds.

Senator BARKLEY. What does your experience lead you to believe as to the probability of private money coming along with a little encouragement by the Government?

Mr. HOPKINS. I think there is substantial evidence of it. The conference we have held with persons who are in a position to provide credit have been very encouraging. If this bill should pass, that credit will be made available. I believe this would do the trick in a limited way, but a very important way.

Senator COUZENS. What are your other points? Mr. HOPKINS. That is all four of them, Senator. Senator BYRNES. Will you not make the fifth point, that it might stimulate construction by other persons who do not have to borrow, who have the money?

Mr. HOPKINS. Yes; I think it would. I think there would be a great deal of that.

The CHAIRMAN. I do not think you will find a great many houses renting for $5 or $6 a month.

Senator COUZENS. You mean per room, I take it.
Mr. HOPKINS. Yes; that is what I meant.

Senator KEAN. He means the workman can rent a bathroom, a dining room, and a sleeping room.

The CHAIRMAN. Are there any other questions of Mr. Hopkins, gentlemen? If not, we can call him in at almost any time. Mr. Hopkins, if we want something further we will call you in again. We will excuse you now. We are very much obliged to you.

Mr. Voorhees, will you take the stand?

STATEMENT OF STEPHEN F. VOORHEES, ARCHITECT, NEW YORK

CITY

Mr. VOORHEES. My name is Stephen F. Voorhees. I am an architect. My address is 101 Park Avenue, New York. I am chairman of the construction code authority and a member of the governing board of the American Institute of Architects, and the Construction League of the United States:

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Voorhees, have you examined this bill, S. 3603?

Mr. VOORHEES. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. You know what is contemplated there. Will you give us your views about it?

Mr. VOORHEES. My views are expressed as a result of contact with our associates in the construction industry. In my opinion this is a most valuable contribution to recovery, particularly for the building trades workman, as distinguished from other construction workers.

I concur in all that Miss Perkins and Mr. Hopkins have said.

The durable goods committee, elected by the various code authorities when they were here in February, has stressed the essential character of recovery in the durable goods, to be led by the construction industry, and we believe this is in that direction. I am sure that there is a very large field if financing can be provided.

From personal experience over the last year in connection with foreclosed mortgage properties for a client with a great number of kinds, sizes, and characters of property, I find a great deterioration, a lack of upkeep, so that in practically every one of these cases my client has been obliged to spend considerable sums of money to bring properties back to proper condition—in most cases purely a matter of restoration of deterioration.

That condition exists not only in large buildings, such as large apartment houses, hotels, and so forth, but in small homes all around New York, in Westchester, and in Long Island.

From conferences with men from all over the country in the building industry-builders, architects, and special contractors, such as plumbers, and so forth—I am sure it is a very general condition. So that from our viewpoint this is one of the most constructive measures, I should think, affecting the construction industry, that has been offered.

One important feature that Mr. Hopkins mentioned is that of encouraging private funds to go back into the market again, rather than depending upon Government funds for construction.

At the present time I do not know what the percentage is, but certainly construction is largely being carried forward on Government funds of one sort or another, and to a relatively small extent with private funds. We all believe we must get back to private funds, and we think this starts the procession in that direction.

The CHAIRMAN. Is there any need for new construction, new homes, or new buildings?

Mr. VOORHEES. I believe there is, without question. I think there is an enormous amount of doubling up, from all that I can learn, and when the opportunity affords those families will want to separate.

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Besides, I think there is a great deal of work in replacements.

The CHAIRMAN. How about the vacancies now? Are there many vacancies of houses and apartments ?

Mr. VOORHEES. There are in certain sections—in our city, for example—but I believe they are lessening. In fact, to indicate that, this particular client, which is one of the largest lenders in New York City, a savings bank, has recently made a loan for a new apartment house. That is just a straw. But, considering that this institution has made practically no loans for new construction in the last year and a half or 2 years, it is a measure of their belief that there is some opportunity.

The CHAIRMAN. Is the tendency toward apartments or individual homes? What was the tendency in that direction? Are people getting into apartments and getting out of detached homes, or vice

Mr. VOORHEES. I think in the larger centers the tendency is toward apartments. In other words, I do not believe a house in New York City or the major part of Brooklyn would be very attractive. The costs, and so forth, tend toward apartments.

On the other hand, I think many people would gladly get out in the suburbs in private houses, even if not widely spaced. I am speaking of the moderate-income group. So that Ì think you have both trends. Insofar as our large centers are concerned, around the whole area of New York

The CHAIRMAN. Is that because the price of land is so high, or is it because of economic conditions in apartments ?

Mr. VOORHEES. I think it is partly due to the price of land and partly the economy of constructing more on a wholesale basis, which is possible in an apartment house as compared with an individual house, and partly because the maintenance question on a wholesale basis is likely to be less than on a retail basis. That is in the case of cities, where it is almost impossible to arrange or provide for selfservice. If you are in the country-speaking now as to maintenance—the same group can go out in a small community and serve themselves directly in houses better than they can in apartments. By that I mean that they can have their own boiler and service their own heating plant, and so forth, whereas in an apartment or tenement house that is impossible with our present facilities. You are almost forced to centralization of that sort of equipment, and so the tenant or the owner must pay somebody else to perform that service for him.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you find the need for modernization and upkeep and repairs very great in these outlying communities? Mr. VOORHEES. Yes. In the community where I live, which is

. about 30 miles out of New York, one of my family inherited a house built about 25 years ago, a very good house structurally, but built at that time in accordance with the standards of an older age by rather elderly people. In order to rent that house, aside from keeping up the gutters, downspouts, roof, and so forth, we found it necessary to modernize it. A hot-air heater is not satisfactory, even for the low rent level that now exists in the community. There is the question of making an investment to put in a steam-heating plant with an oil burner, instead of a hot-air furnace, not because we

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