I understand that there are 41 amendments proposed by labor to this bill; it that right?

Mr. MOLONEY. I think there were 44 amendments.

Mr. NELSEN. Do I understand that unless those amendments are adopted that labor would be lukewarm in its support of this bill in its present form?

Mr. MOLONEY. I would not say that that statement applied to all of the 44 amendments but I did, in my testimony, quote from testimony of Mr. Chesser and the testimony of Mr. Crotty, in which they said, before this bill would be acceptable to them certain of those amendments would have to be made and they are very important amendments. Mr. NELSEN. Has management suggested amendments and commented?

Mr. MOLONEY. No, sir. Management has not suggested amendments and we are opposed to the bill, in fact to the entire concept of this broad unlimited authority on the basis that there has been no showing of need for it. May I call your attention to this, when the Secretary was on the stand, I believe, yesterday, in defense of the Highway Safety Transportation Act and its great achievements, he said that there had been 53,000 people killed in highway accidents and that even though the exposure had increased, they had managed to hold that level and attributed a large part of that to the Highway Safety Act.

We would be willing to be measured by the same standards but, if you notice, the Secretary did not refer to accidents. He referred to fatalities. He did not measure highway safety by the number of accidents that occurred on the highway but the number of people that were killed.

Now, if you measure railroad safety the same way, not by accidents but by fatalities, you will find that our record has improved.

Mr. NELSEN. I have no more questions. Mr. Chairman, except to say to Mr. Menk that I am sorry that he had to come back so many times. We welcome him to our committee. It gets a little tiresome even for members up here sometimes to sit through long hearings. Thank you very much.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Kyros.

Mr. KYROS. Mr. Chairman, I don't have any questions but, if I have the time, I would like to yield to my good friend, Mr. Skubitz. Mr. SKUBITZ. I have a couple of questions.

There has been a lot of stress placed on the number of accidents that have occurred on the railroad where someone mentioned the figure 7,000 accidents.

Actually these accidents are not related to personal injury cases but are related to a monetary factor, are they not? With $750 worth of damage this is an accident.

Mr. MENK. That is correct.

Mr. SKUBITZ. I think Mr. Daulton testifying before the committee pointed out that of all the accidents only 6 percent resulted in casualties. This leaves the impression that a lot of the accidents are not serious accidents.

Am I correct that under the aviation laws, if the hostess tells the passengers to fasten their seat belts and stay in their seats until the plane comes to a full stop and if a person is injured walking down the aisle this is not a reportable accident?

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Mr. MENK. As soon as the plane stops.

Mr. SKUBITZ. Is this true of the railroads?

Mr. MENK. No, sir.

Mr. SKUBITZ. Isn't there a time element involved in the reporting of accidents? If an employee strains his back, how long must he be off duty before it becomes a reportable accident?

Mr. MENK. If he is off 24 hours.

Mr. SKUBITZ. If they come back on the job and can't do the same job but can do something else is it still a reportable accident?

Mr. MENK. They can't do anything else. They have to come back to the same job that they were on.

Mr. SKUBITZ. Is this true in the aviation industry?

Mr. MENK. It is not true in the aviation industry. I understand they go to any job.

May I say respecting our own experience that out of 371 train accidents last year there were 25 casualties, no deaths.

Mr. SKUBITZ. I am glad you brought that up because I read with interest the AAR issue of May 8 in which it boasted of the safety record in 1967 and points out that with respect to passengers there was a 50 percent reduction in 1967.

Mr. Menk, do you think that the Kansas City Southern, Frisco, or any other railroad has encouraged passengers to ride their trains or improve their service in the last few years? I can't think of a single thing the railroads have done.

Mr. MENK. I can't speak for the Kansas Southern. I can speak for the Northern Pacific and tell you what we are doing.

Mr. SKUBITZ. Would you submit it for the record please?

My time is running out. I thought perhaps the reduction was due to the number of trains discontinued and on that basis perhaps in a few more years the AAR can boast of the fact that there are no casualties on the passenger trains because there won't be any more passenger trains.

Mr. MENK. That might well be so.

Mr. SKUBITZ. I don't think so. I notice that the ICC issued a release the other day. It has asked Congress to review the passenger train problem.

Mr. MENK. I noticed that.

Mr. SKUBITZ. Mr. Crotty in testifying before the committee objected to the transportation of men and equipment and combustible material on buses to and from work.

Is this a general practice of the railroads to haul men and combustible materials on the same bus or truck?

Mr. MENK. No, it is specifically against our rules. I think I covered that in my opening statement.

Not only are we getting to the point where we are changing our equipment but we don't even haul the men in the same section that the tools are hauled albeit I don't say that our former practice wasn't safe. But to even get into a safer area we are separating the men from their tools. I gave some pictures of that.

Mr. SKUBITZ. This is your railroad?

Mr. MENK. I think it's general.

Mr. SKUBITZ. This is the general practice of all railroads.

Mr. MENK. I am not an authority on all railroads but I think it is more or less general that we are adopting these practices.

Mr. SKUBITZ. Thank you.

Mr. MACDONALD. Will the gentleman yield?

Mr. SKUBITZ. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Go ahead.

Mr. MACDONALD. Sir, I don't really understand your function. Are you representing all the railroads or just your own railroad? Mr. MENK. I am a witness for the AAR opposing this bill.

Mr. MACDONALD. I understand your opposing this bill but on behalf of your own railroad or all railroads?

Mr. MENK. I am a spokesman for the members of the AAR.

Mr. MACDONALD. But some of the statistics you use you take from your own railroad, the concrete example when you talk about the dropoff in maintenance people as being relatively small; and yet if you were representing the Boston & Maine or the New York, New Haven & Hartford you couldn't make that statement because it is just

not so.

Mr. MENK. The statistics I quoted, sir, about maintenance people were industry statistics.

We also had a statistical witness that had a lot of this information but what I quoted for this record today were industry statistics with respect to maintenance of way employees for a 10-year period. Mr. MACDONALD. Thank you, sir.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. SKUBITZ. I would like to get one other statistic into the record. How many men are employed by the railroads? I am not talking about white collar workers. I am talking about workers.

Mr. MENK. I have that.

The CHAIRMAN. I believe the figure says 632,863.

Mr. SKUBITZ. 632,000 and how many were killed last year, 131?

The CHAIRMAN. 166.

Mr. SKUBITZ. How does that compare with industry generally?

The CHAIRMAN. I don't know but it increased from 1961 from 130 to 166 last year.

The gentleman's time has expired.

If you want to submit that for the record you may a little later.
Mr. SKUBITZ. Will you submit this for the record, Mr. Menk.
Mr. MENK. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. I would like to ask one question before we close. This is along that same line.

In the class of accidents submitted by the Interstate Commerce Commission number 130 to 134, train accidents had increased from 1961, 158 to 214.

In 1961 of all of these there were 2,127 according to this bulletin and in 1966 it increased to 2,684 with a steady increase each year with the exception of 1965 when it went down about 100, but it jumped 300 last year and this includes the grade crossings and all, the people killed there.

I want to submit this for the record. I believe it is a part of the record anyhow in this book.

Mr. MOLONEY. May I ask one question, Mr. Chairman?

The CHAIRMAN. Surely.

Mr. MOLONEY. Does that 2,600-some-odd figure include the 1,700some odd at grade crossings? In other words, out of the 2,600 there were about 1,800 on the grade crossings.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, sir.

Another thing I wanted to bring to mind was the fact of what Mr. Keith brought up about the administration's questioning and its report.

The administration sent this bill up here. We have the bill before us and it's up to the committee to make the bill the best bill we can have.

I don't think that many of the things that they wanted will be in the bill when it comes out. I believe it is before us and we must act on it one way or another.

I was wondering why the railroad association group and the labor group and the administration hadn't gotten together. They knew this. This has been coming for years. I wonder why someone didn't try to get together and present a bill that would express the views of all three groups. That is the thing that amazes me.

I think it is about the one group in the land today that won't get together and talk a little bit and work together and the reason it is here is because you didn't do it and the Congress has to do something about it.

That is the only reason under the sun. It has just gotten to that point. when people get obstinate that some people who are elected in the Nation must look out for the public interest.

Mr. MOLONEY. Mr. Chairman, may I comment on that?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, indeed.

Mr. MOLONEY. As I stated, when they first approached us we in substance took the same position that Mr. O'Connell took in his letter to Mr. Lang. Mr. O'Connell had these statistics that the Department. of Transportation has, for instance, with respect to derailments. He mentioned that in his letter but Mr. O'Connell said that those statistics needed thorough study and he recommended that a study in depth be made going behind these statistics and in an effort to determine the causes of derailments.

We frankly are still trying to determine the causes of this increase in derailments, because as Mr. Menk pointed out in his affirmative testimony we welcome anyone who can help us determine the cause of this increase in derailments.

After we have determined the cause then we think people may be in a position to determine what remedies should be applied.

The CHAIRMAN. Let me read from that same letter the concluding paragraph.

"We believe that the primary responsibility for improved railroad safety should rest upon railroad management and labor"-Here is the crux-"However, we reiterate here that if it appears that they cannot or will not accept the challenge promptly to arrest the worsen ing railroad accident picture, consideration should be given to supporting or proposing Federal legislation which would provide additional safety regulatory authority for the Department of Transportation in the railroad safety field."

And it was signed by Joseph J. O'Connell, Jr. I don't believe it is dated but I think it is the same letter you refer to.

Mr. MOLONEY. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. That is the very thing I am talking about, somebody in the industry and labor somewhere didn't accept the responsibility to do something about it and that is what happens so many times in the land today.

Mr. MOLONEY. As we stated, we agree with that statement 100 percent, Mr. Chairman, and in a letter to Mr. Leighty in answer to a letter that he wrote asking management's support for I think Mr. Moss' bill that we replied and used exactly the language that you have quoted and we said we are ready and willing and able to face up to this responsibility and we ask that you join us in doing so and we have extended that same offer of cooperation to the Department of Transportation.

The CHAIRMAN. All right.

Now you appear here before this committee saying you don't want the bill and I think there is going to be a bill. Why don't you enter into it and say, "We would like this or something else ought to be done." The fact of compromise and working together is the very essence of progress in America and in human relations, not just opposing. Anybody can oppose.

In fact, you should be saying, "If there is going to be something let's work together and it will be of mutual benefit." You haven't submitted anything.

Mr. MOLONEY. No, sir, Mr. Chairman, our position is that if that is done there is no need for this legislation or any legislation of this type.

The CHAIRMAN. That is going to be in the year 2000 or 2056. We want something and are demanding something now. These accident rates are going up and up and the number of people being killed is going up according to the statistics which I just read.

Mr. MOLONEY. May I respect fully, Mr. Chairman, invite your attention to Mr. Daulton's statement where he shows and he says those are actual statistics that there has been a marked decline in total railroad employee casualties.

In 1961 deaths and injuries totaled 19,118. In 1967 they totaled 17 467, an 11.9 percent decrease.

The CHAIRMAN. Just a minute. I am looking at the figures here and I don't see that.

Mr. MACDONALD. Mr. Chairman, will you yield?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. MACDONALD. How does that figure that you just stated compare to the dropoff in employment by the railroads?

Mr. MOLONEY. That question was asked and that information is being prepared for the record and the preliminary indication is that the percentage of deaths and injuries in 1966 will be exactly, the percentage now will be exactly what it was in 1961.

The CHAIRMAN. They have 122,000 less employees.

Mr. MOLONEY. Yes, sir, and we have as I have just read you that many less deaths and injuries.

The CHAIRMAN. I have that same set of figures.

Mr. MOLONEY. When you move to all persons, that includes not only employees and the like, we had an 8.9 percent reduction in fatalities and injuries in the same period of time and we think when we come