ing at a greater rate, and I don't think there is any dispute, it is obvious that the daily inspection is not satisfactory, and we would try to get to the root cause of the problem.

Mr. HARVEY. Could I ask my one question here and then I will yield the floor and the gentleman can wind up here, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Boyd, let me just say that on the question of personnel that that is one area where I differ from you greatly. It is one area that 1 very respectfully differed with you on in the gas pipeline safety bill. and I thought when you came before us you would be prepared to tell us exactly what you were contemplating in that particular time and what use of personnel. I do think it is vital, as Mr. Brown has pointed out, that we know it.

Secretary BOYD. This is what we propose. We do not have clearance from the Bureau of the Budget. In the first year after this bill is passed, we would propose additional staffing as follows: In the Washing Office, three division chiefs, two for the technical staff and the research and development program, one hearing officer, five members of the technical staff in the regulation-writing area, two attorneys, two secretaries.

In connection with the State program, we would propose two coordinators, for a total of 17 additional personnel.

For the second year of the operation, we would propose two document clerks in the Washington office, two secretaries in the headquarters operation, seven track, bridge, and tunnel inspectors, five operator and radio rules inspectors, eight design and running gear inspectors in the field staff. The seven, the five, and the eight are in the field staff as would be three secretaries, for a total of 23.

For the third year of operation, we would provide in the headquarters operation three additional employees in the technical staff on the research and development program.

Mr. FRIEDEL. Three additional, making a total of what?

Secretary Born. Making a total of 12 over the 3-year period in the headquarters staff. In the regulation-writing operation there would be no increase, so that we would have a total of 10 people in that for the 3-year period.

We would eliminate one of the State coordinators so that we would have one left instead of the two. We would add seven track, bridge, and tunnel inspectors in the field. We would add five inspectors for operator and radio rules.

Mr. HARVEY. Is that the third year?

Secretary BOYD. That is the third year.

That would give you a total of 14 track, bridge, and tunnel inspectors, a total of 10 operators and radio rules inspectors. We would add seven design and running gear inspectors, which would give a total of 15. We would add four secretaries in the field, which would give a total of seven, for a total of 46 in the field. That would mean an overall total of 69 additional employees over a 3-year period following the enactment of this legislation.

Mr. HARVEY. I thank you for that information.

Mr. Chairman, I have more questions, but I will yield the floor to my colleagues here.

Mr. FRIEDEL. All right. Mr. Brotzman.

Mr. BROTZMAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Secretary once again to get back to the scope of the bill, and this is not just what your intention is but what the authority granted by the language involved here does. Turning to page 2 for just a moment, I have read and reread the definitions here and the first is that "Railroad' means any contrivance now known or hereafter invented, used or designed for operating on, along or through a track, monorail, tube, or other guideway."

Then you have to read that I think in conjunction with what "rail commerce," which is where your authority comes from. "Rail commerce" means any operation by railroad in or affecting interstate or foreign commerce or the transportation of mail by railroad. The key words there being "affecting interstate or foreign commerce."

Is it your opinion that you would have authority over municipaltype modes of transportation under this language?

Secretary BOYD. No, sir.

Mr. BROTZMAN. You think that you do not have it?

Secretary BoYD. That is right; unless of course you get a situation such as might be the case in New York where you have in effects a municipal subway operation which might cross State boundaries in the metropolitan area. Then we would have jurisdiction.

Mr. BROTZMAN. It's an easier case you are making legally when the transportation actually does go across a State line, but I emphasized the words "Affecting interstate or foreign commerce" and I think you are familiar and so is your counsel with the rather broad construction that these particular words have received from the Supreme Court of the United States.

I was thinking for example of a circumstance such as the Bay Area Rapid Transit System that they are putting together out in the San Francisco-Oakland area.

It seems to me that an operation such as that does affect interstate commerce and I am sure you could make a legal argument that it would, but what I am trying to find out is what your thought are on this because we have to be guided in part by the way you construe it or your counsel construes it.

Secretary BOYD. Well, we don't contemplate attempting to regulate the safety of operations such as the Bay Area Rapid Transit. De do not interpret this language as bringing an operation such as BART within the purview of this act.

Mr. BROTZMAN. So as of this particular moment at least according to your attitude unless the mode of transportation actually crosses a State line then you don't think you do have authority, is that correct?

Secretary BOYD. No, sir. No; that is not my statement at all. I think that it is entirely possible that you will find some of the shortline railroads operating completely within the boundaries of one State which would be in my judgment either in interstate commerce or in an operation that affects interstate commerce and would therefore be subject to the regulation of this legislation.

Mr. BROTZMAN. One of the reasons I am asking these questions is that in some of the testimony relative to the Gas Act it seemed to me that there was a much broader construction appended by you and your department relative to what "affects interstate commerce" and it seemed to me that it was much more expansive than these same terms are receiving from you right now.

Secretary BOYD. Of course in the Natural Gas Pipeline case you have a situation where the gas comes of the wellhead and moves in an unbroken line through the gathering lines to the transmission lines to the distribution lines and then to the ultimate consumer.

It is a completely different situation than a city trolley line or even BART which is certainly a major extension of a city trolley or subway line where you don't have that tie.

Now, when I was in law school I remember reading a case which went to the Supreme Court which held that an elevator operator in the Empire State Building was affected by interstate commerce for the purpose of some wage and hour law. I don't know whether that has been overruled or not but that struck me as a rather broad construction of interstate commerce because lessees in the building were national companies and the fact that John Doe may ride the BART line from Walnut Creek to his office on Market Street where he is an employee of United States Steel I don't think would mean that the BART operation affects interstate commerce. I am not prepared to give that broad a construction.

Mr. BROTZMAN. My time is rather short and I can discuss this at some length because I do foresee some differences, Mr. Secretary, in relation to these two bills.

One more question. What does a densely populated area mean? Secretary BOYD. I don't know.

Mr. BROTZMAN. That is on page 4, line 25. This is also some language that we struggled with in relation to the other bill. I talked with you trying to get some help and I want to know whether you have given thought to what this language means?

Secretary BOYD. I haven't given thought to that in connection with this legislation because this is something which as far as we can foresee would be left to the States.

Mr. BROTZMAN. Who is going to determine that? Someone has to determine whether or not the State is going to operate in a manner that doesn't conflict with your position.

Secretary BOYD. I don't know. I am sure that if, as, and when the Department becomes concerned with that definition it would be based on some sort of a population per square mile which is the standard figure.

Mr. BROTZMAN. Do you have anything that would help us now in this direction?

Secretary BOYD. No, sir; nothing.

Mr. BROTZMAN. This is one of the things that we were concerned with relative to the gas lines as you know and we were trying to come up with some kind of formula in regard to that bill and didn't get one. I wondered if you had anything at your disposal that would help us to do something in this regard?

Secretary BOYD. No, sir.

Mr. BROTZMAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. FRIEDEL. Mr. Brown.

Mr. BROWN. Mr. Secretary, in just jotting down your figures for personnel which would be added to the Department for purposes of administering this law, I have come to these figures. They may not be accurate. In 3 years you would have 14 track, bridge, and tunnel inspec

tors, 15 running gear inspectors, and 10 operator and radio rules. inspectors.

Is that correct, for a total of 39 inspection employees?

Secretary BOYD. Yes, sir, that is correct.

Mr. BROWN. Whose standards will they be applying in their inspection of the various areas of their responsibility?

Secretary BOYD. The Departments.

Mr. BROWN. Where will those standards come from?

Secretary BOYD. They will come from regulations which have been adopted pursuant to the provisions of the Administrative Procedure Act.

Mr. BROWN. How would those regulations be developed?

Secretary BOYD. They will be developed first of all through staff work in the Department in conjunction with discussions with railroad management and with railroad brotherhood representatives. After that, the Department will issue a proposed regulation, publish it in the Federal Register, and request comments within a period of time depending upon the complexity of the regulation, 30, 60, or 90 days. After that, the comments will be evaluated and assessed and, depending on the impact of those comments, the final regulation will be issued.

Mr. BROWN. This relates, for instance, to all running gear. You will develop the standards for running gear based on conversations with the railroad executives and railroad labor, is that correct?

Secretary BOYD. Yes, sir.

Excuse me, sir. One thing I want to make clear is that, while the legislation will provide for broad coverage, it doesn't necessarily mean and I don't think we contemplate that every aspect of railroad operation is going to become subject to a regulation of the Department. Mr. BROWN. What do you think might be omitted, sir?

Secretary BOYD. I have no idea.

Mr. BROWN. Do you anticipate that any equipment would be omitted from standards in the running gear area?

Secretary BOYD. It is entirely possible.
Mr. BROWN. What kind of equipment?

Secretary BOYD. I have no idea. I am not technically competent and we have not been in a position to make the kinds of studies necessary to give you answers to questions of that type.

Mr. BROWN. Who will make that kind of study?

Secretary BoYD. These men.

Mr. BROWN. Inspectors?

Secretary BOYD. No. We have got a number of people.

Mr. BROWN. If my figures are correct, I notice that you have five in technical research development.

Secretary BoYD. We have five in the technical staff of regulation writing and five in the technical staff of the R. & D. program. These men will collaborate and we will use such other sources as we have at the Department.

Mr. BROWN. I want to separate the regulation writing from the technical and research and development.

Will the regulation writing people be journalism people?

Secretary BOYD. The technical people will be technical in the sense of competent to consider the operation, design, and useage of the rail

road, not technically writers in the sense of being graduates of a school of journalism.

Mr. BROWN. I am trying to get the distinction between the regulation writing and technical and R. & D. people.

Are you telling me that there will be 10 people who will have technical competence in railroad equipment and operation, or are you telling me that there will be five people who have technical competence and five others who will be in the writing?

Secretary BoYD. I am telling you there will be 10. They will have different responsibilities but they will be in touch with each other. They will be discussing similar subjects but they will have different purposes in their employment.

Mr. BROWN. But they will have technical competence in the track, bridge, and tunnel area, running gear area and in operation of railroads.

Secretary BOYD. That is correct, yes, sir.

Mr. BROWN. And radio rules inspection?
Secretary BOYD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BROWN. Where do you anticipate those people will come from?
Secretary BOYD. Probably from the railroad industry.

Mr. BROWN. Well, I am a little hard pressed to understand how the Department is going to develop technical competence beyond that which now exists within the industry and within both management and labor-who negotiate these problems of safety and operation— and develop a competence that is superior to that which exists within the industry at the present.

Secretary BOYD. I don't want to give the impression that I think the Federal Government has got some sort of mysterious knowledge which isn't given to other people to understand.

Mr. BROWN. Apparently not. If we have any knowledge, it will have to be drawn from the industry.

Secretary BOYD. No; that is not correct. We expect it to come from the industry. However, there is a great deal in the way of research which leads to an understanding of an operation which is not available to the average individual working for the railroad.

We would expect to have people who were, by experience and by training, some of which will undoubtedly have to be provided by and through the Department to be specialists in various areas.

Mr. BROWN. In other words, you anticipate that the Department will get into the research and development activity of railroading through independent research from the railroad industry in such areas as running gear, bridge and tunnel construction, and that kind of thing? Secretary BoYD. Yes, sir.

Now, it is entirely possible that we will contract with the railroad industry or various elements of the industry to carry out various research projects. It is also entirely possible that we will contract with the Illinois Institute of Technology which does a great deal of work, or at least a fair amount of work for the railroad industry.

Mr. BROWN. Do the budget figures in this legislation reflect that outside contract work or do they merely reflect the personnel thatSecretary BOYD. The total budget figures? Are you talking about the figures in the authorization?

Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.